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Culture War Roundup for the week of September 9, 2024

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The only justification I can come up with for the latter is that it is the constitutional right of pro-Palestinian people to attack people supporting Israel.

Basically the government's view is if someone has tackled you and is beating on you, it's not sporting to fight back with a weapon (i.e. deadly force). Think of government as the two guys who hold you while their buddy punches you.

To add insult to injury, the pro-Palestinian man has not been charged.

You certainly don't seem like you're unbiased in describing this situation, which makes it difficult to take your account seriously.

In this article it says they're going to charge the pro-Palestinian guy after it became apparent that he would survive.

In terms of self-defense, there should obviously be some limits to prevent society degenerating into one where people try to bait their enemies into attacking them so they get a free pass at murder. See Cartman shooting Tolkien for a comedic example.

It comes down to proportionality here. On one hand you could say humans are intensely, catastrophically fragile. You could scare/startle a person, which could cause them to slip and fall on a jagged piece of cement that severs their spine and kills them instantly. In the same vein, a kid throwing a rock or wielding a stick could be "deadly" in unlucky circumstances. But under reasonable circumstances I don't think that justifies blasting them with a gun.

In this situation, if anything the fall was the most likely to injure. The pro-Israel guy had friends there so I doubt there was a reasonable expectation of getting strangled or anything like that, so him reaching for his gun was at least somewhat excessive, if not strongly excessive. That said, there should be some allowance for the ambiguity of the situation (shock, adrenaline, etc.)... which is what seems like is going to happen. The state is going to charge him, but not with the maximal punishment like attempted murder or even (according the second article you posted) § 15E, Assault and Battery by Discharging a Firearm which would carry a maximum of a 20 year sentence.

It seems like the state is doing a reasonably good job here, although it would be prudent to wait for more info. Though, of course if there's a bunch of info incriminating the pro-Israel guy then we probably wouldn't hear about it on this site, as the entire thing would just be ignored.

It seems like the state is doing a reasonably good job here, although it would be prudent to wait for more info. Though, of course if there's a bunch of info incriminating the pro-Israel guy then we probably wouldn't hear about it on this site, as the entire thing would just be ignored.

Consensus accusations are somehow even more obnoxious than consensus building. We have literal holocaust deniers here, the accusation that we don't allow or have anti-Israel takes or news posted is indefensible.

Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

This whole thread started from a pretty flagrant violation of this rule, which seems to be in complete abeyance at this point.

The vast majority of posts on the Motte are between right-wing takes and far-right-wing takes. If there was a generous population of pro-Palestinian people here then maybe your argument would have some legs to stand on. But most people are treating this as a discussing of 2A rights and whether it's justified to shoot violent leftists. The notion that some Holocaust deniers balances that out is just goofy.

Of course this is primarily a 2A discussion, there is no new angle on the PvI conflict out of this. We also have plenty of left of center people here, just not lot of progressives. Have you considered that the "pro Palestinian" position just isn't very strong?

Though, of course if there's a bunch of info incriminating the pro-Israel guy

Always reason to be patient, but then we couldn't yap. We should know we are selectively watching something.

Perhaps the shooter has a posted litany of online memes incriminating himself with intent to shoot protestors like the 4chan memelord had some years ago. I wouldn't be too surprised if pro-Israel protestor man told his buddy he was carrying a gun to the protest to "blast Arab supporting vermin," inshallah. I am not that surprised that a radical that appears to initiate violence at a protest event retweets stuff like this. When does an idea become Stochastic Terrorism?

wouldn't hear about it on this site, as the entire thing would just be ignored.

I see positions in this thread that range from did-nothing-wrong to Lock Him Up. I'm pretty sure bad shoots have been discussed here before. Facially, this one appears to be more debatable than an example like Rittenhouse. Although I suspect won't be pursued as vigorously nor reported on as heavily.

The state's position here is that if some guy runs across the street, tackles you, and starts beating on you, you're required to take the beating and hope bystanders will pull the guy off you rather than shoot him. If you don't do that, you go to prison for up to 10 years. That the state COULD send you to jail for up to 20 years does not make the 10 years some sort of reasonable middle ground.

you're required to take the beating

Not at all. He could have fought back with his fists to try to get the guy off him. The problem was that he escalated with multiple gunshots instead.

The notion that he can't fight back at all is a goofy strawman.

  • -15

The problem with using one's fists is some people are so much stronger than others.

That's... accounted for? The second article you posted mentioned that neither side really seemed to have a clear physical advantage in stature. If it was a tiny girl that was <100lbs vs an NFL linebacker then a gun might be more understandable, but that wasn't the case here.

  • -11

If you are on the ground with someone on top of you, you're at a large physical disadvantage barring something extreme like being an NFL linebacker assailed by a ballerina.

Right but... he also had friends there to help him out, who immediately intervened to drag the guy off him.

You don't need that much of a disparity to consistently make no headway in a physical fight.