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We can obviously agree, empirically, that there are two major clusters in how people get treated, male and female. "Ma'am" refers to one of those two clusters. The "ma'am" cluster includes both people with penises, and people with vaginas. This all seems like a basic objective observation of reality to me.
Given that, I don't get how this is any more circular than any other subjective category, like "nerd" or "tall" or "centrist"?
If you mean to argue that the way people treat trans women is functionally indistinguishable from the way they treat cis women - well, no. Indeed, even trans activists don't believe this - essentially every complaint made by trans activists (including Tickle, which started this debate) seems to ultimately boil down to "I wish people treated me as a [sir/ma'am], but they don't. Even when I can see that they're trying to treat me as a [sir/ma'am], I can tell they don't really see me that way and are just playing pretend in an effort to mollify me." And that's not even getting into the people who complain that "people keep treating me as a sir, even though I would prefer to be treated as neither sir nor ma'am and this should be obvious to outside observers even though everything about my appearance and comportment is entirely consistent with my being a sir" even though our society never created a script for how to interact with people who are neither sir nor ma'am because those two categories covered 100% of people until some teenagers spent too much time having their narcissism reinforced and encouraged on Tumblr, and now here we are.
I get called "ma'am" and don't see any particular difference in how I'm treated. Plenty of trans people "pass"; it's not exactly an obscure topic. It shouldn't be surprising that trans people who fail at passing complain more - the ones who succeed are already getting treated how they want, so there's no really much to complain about personally.
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The supposed circularity of woman is just whenever people use quotes to say something like identifies as "woman." You sidestep that by changing the word to "ma'am" but what if someone says, "err, but you're not a ma'am"? Then you need to define ma'am and then you might run into some circularity.
If you don't want to define ma'am then it turns out woman is just a cluster unified by an arbitrary desire to be called a certain word. Realistically, it's also an arbitrary desire to be treated a certain way in general.
With tall and nerd you don't need to make reference to "quoted" "labels" and self-ID, so you are unlikely to run into any circularity.
I will re-iterate that the supposed circularity is not really the objection to trans activist policy and culture proposals. A significant part of the population thinks the trans desire is unreasonable. The circularity of the new woman definition is a strategy to give trans people what they desire (certain social privileges and connotations).
That would seem like a weird thing to say, since "ma'am" is how most people refer to me, and it'll confuse other people if you refer to me as "sir".
I mean, isn't that how names work? What's wrong with wanting to be called a certain word? I'm not forcing anyone to use it
You're not a ma'am. If you're going to continue to insist that you are, then please define ma'am.
It's simply a matter of fact that when people greet me, they use "ma'am" instead of "sir". I'm not sure what's unclear about that sentence.
"ma'am" is the word other people use to greet me. I'm surprised you haven't run into it before? You'd have to ask them what they mean by it, I'm not the one using it.
But sir, you said that you prefer to be called "ma'am." Why do you have a preference if you don't know what they mean?
Again: "ma'am" is a cluster of behaviors, not just a word. People who call me "ma'am" tend to treat me with respect, while people who call me "sir" tend to be assholes. Seems like pretty obvious incentive structures?
Are there any people who call you sir and treat you with respect? Or is the mere act of calling you sir disrespectful?
Yes ma'am, there are a few such people. Otherwise I'd find the sir/ma'am distinction sufficient, without gesturing at the broader cluster.
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Yes we can.
No it does not. The ma'am cluster- otherwise known as women- includes people who have vaginas, xx chromosomes, uteruses, etc. Larping males don't belong there even if it makes them sad, any more than the various schizos who run for president on the platform that they have a chip in their brain belong in the oval office.
Having male genitals or xy chromosomes is disqualifying from being a woman. There are some people who don't fit into either category, for no fault of their own, and we call them intersex.
You can say that this way of drawing the line is arbitrary, but you would simply be wrong- my way, and the old way, is better because it gets at the information people actually care about. I don't find you wearing skirts to be some fundamental aspect of your identity because you can put on a pair of pants with, presumably, the same level of effort that I can. But you can't change your biological sex. It takes major surgery to change your anatomy- and artificial vaginas are not functional in the same way as natural ones in a variety of ways. It is impossible to change your genetic makeup. Transwomen having female-typical hormones requires constant intervention.
It is possible to be wrong about your own identity, even if you disguise yourself.
You're really claiming that not a single trans woman has ever been referred to as "ma'am"? 😂 That's a pretty amazing claim, so I'm assuming you have some pretty amazing evidence for it?
But, you know, people have called me personally "ma'am", totally unprompted! They do it all the time, in fact. If I try to explain that I'm a guy, they get confused. So... I mean, I know for a fact you're wrong. I'm pretty sure you can find other trans people with similar experiences.
My claim is that you are not a woman. Your disguise being good enough to pass for one does not change this, because being a woman is based on biology.
So when you meet someone new, do you treat them as some sort of third gender until you've had a chance to confirm whether they have a uterus or not? Like, in practice, how does this function socially? How many people's uteruses have you actually confirmed?
Trans, intersex, extremely androgynous people and people lacking in reproductive organs are such small minorities that if you meet someone and they look like a female person (meaning they have ovaries, a uterus etc.), you will be correct 90+% of the time. It's an extremely reliable heuristic, more reliable than any medical protocol ever designed. I acknowledge that this heuristic may not be quite as reliable in the specific subcultures and circles in which you move, but across the human race as a whole, 90+% sounds about right.
True. And if you assume everyone is bipedal, you'll be even more "accurate"! You might get extremely confused by people in wheelchairs, but hey, what are 80 million categorization errors between friends?
(Because, you do realize, 1% of the population is... 80 million people?)
Do you actually stand by that claim? That seems like an extraordinary claim. If "they look female" is more reliable than medical tests, why are we going around checking for uteruses and gametes? Why not just say "if they look female, they should use the women's bathroom"? Like, again, this test you're proposing, "they look female", is MORE reliable than even the best test on the market! So... why rely on anything else at that point?
You're putting words in my mouth, trying to act as if "assume that everyone you meet possesses this trait unless given good reason to believe otherwise" and "deny the existence of people who don't possess this trait" are synonymous and interchangeable. It's obnoxious, tiresome and you should know better.
In point of fact, we do already assume that everyone we meet is bipedal and able-bodied: that's why when (for example when making a job application) many employers will ask if you require any special accomodations because of your disability status. The default assumption (borne out by statistics) is that the standard job applicant is bipedal, able-bodied, sighted, able to hear etc. The reason these accomodations are "special" is because, by definition, most people don't need them.
If we didn't assume that almost everyone is bipedal and able-bodied, when building new houses and office blocks, why would we bother building stairs as part of the new construction?
We check uteruses and gametes only when we are presented with strong evidence to suggest that a specific person who looks female or claims to be female may not in fact be a typical member of the female sex (or may not be a member at all). If a couple wants to have a baby, they just start trying to get pregnant right away: they don't go to the hospital first to get an MRI to confirm that the female partner has a full complement of functioning reproductive organs. They only go to a fertility doctor if they are facing difficulties getting pregnant i.e. once they are presented with evidence that might point to at least one partner in the couple not possessing a full complement of fully functioning reproductive organs. The tests to determine whether or not this is true are intended to provide more information than can be gleaned from the naked eye (e.g. you can't just glance at someone and determine that they have an irregularity in one of their fallopian tubes), but are subject to false negatives and false positives just like any other medical test. And yes, I absolutely would believe that the rate of false results (categorisation errors) associated with these tests is higher than the rate associated with the informal heuristic in which we assume that anyone who looks female has a full set of reproductive organs.
In fact, now that I think about it, this is just extremely basic Bayesian reasoning. Employers assume that all applicants are bipedal, able-bodied, sighted etc. unless given relevant information (walks with a cane; disabled sticker on their car) which suggests otherwise, at which point they update their priors. The medical establishment assumes that a given female-looking person of a certain age has a full complement of functioning reproductive organs, unless given relevant information (has been trying to get pregnant for a year without success; looks female, but in fact has a penis) which suggests otherwise, at which point they update their priors.
Um... you might want to read some building codes? If you assume everyone is bipedal and able-bodied, why all these requirements for elevators, and curb ramps for wheelchairs?
Okay, we're going around in linguistic circles here. If you see someone in a wheelchair, you don't demand any further proof that they can't walk unless there's some sort of extraordinary situation. I'm asking that if you see me and think I'm female, that's also sufficient proof, and you let me go pee in the women's bathroom.
Word games aside, can I pee in the bathroom? I've got a vagina, which locker room do you want me in?
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I generally believe people’s claims about their anatomy, I generally disbelieve people’s claims that their existence contradicts their anatomy, it’s not that difficult of a concept to grasp- and nor is it a contradiction.
Alright, so I guess: what does it matter? People treat me like a woman, and I'm happy with that. There's clearly a category of "people who pass as female" and I'm in it. The vast majority of society finds it easiest to just call that category "women". It turns out that language is flexible and words have multiple definitions.
Do you go around insisting that people who dye their hair don't "really" have green hair, they're just disguising themselves? Would you find it easier to locate someone, knowing they currently have green hair, or knowing that they were born blonde?
Note that I've not made any claims about my anatomy. All I've said is that I get grouped in as a woman, and if you want to pick me out of a crowd you'd be wasting a lot of time looking through all the male-presenting people.
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