site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 19, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

PMC control as opposed to what? The last I checked Musk was both professional and managerial. It's not a term I've ever heard used by anyone other than an online conservative who isn't exactly blue collar.

  • -17

PMC control as opposed to what?

As opposed to founder control. It's right there in the original post.

It's not a term I've ever heard used by anyone other than an online conservative

That probably says more about you than it does about anyone else, because the term comes from some leftist trying to reconcile the classical Marxist view of society with the fact that the majority of the oppression of the working class nowadays is coming from people who aren't the owners of the means of production.

I agree that Rov is dismissing a valid issue for bad reasons and it is fair to talk of PMC, but as far as I am aware the concept of the Managerial class has its origin in James Burnham's Managerial Revolution. Who is an individual who moved from being a Trotskyist to being a right winger. I believe he wasn't a Trotskyist by the time he wrote the Managerial Revolution but he wrote it at a point where it was just a few years after he broke from Trotskyism, and that intellectual legacy still shaped to an extend the way he analyzed things.

As Bartender_Venator points out we are both right. It's a laundered term specifically coined to avoid it's association with the right.

Sometimes an insult is just too effective to pass up. People with more money than me, but less agency than the ultra rich? Tempting targets.

It’s definitely been picked up by the right opposition. I suspect that “bourgeoisie” has already been watered down enough to make it less useful for socialists. That leaves conservatives putting a label to their outgroup.

People with more money than me, but less agency than the ultra rich?

That's the opposite of what the term is about. HR has lots of agency, but they don't get paid terribly much where I'm from.

It’s definitely been picked up by the right opposition.

But so what? I get that we have cooties, but I can't imagine dropping an idea I formulated because people I don't like picked it up. Though as Bartender_Venator explains this is more of a case of "always has been", but that still makes it a weird example of "Eww, a rightoid said it? Gotta drop it!", which I find incredibly childish.

It may not be central to the term, but it’s the main reason that term caught on.

Marxists wanted to expand their class struggle from “labor vs. capital” to “labor vs. capital and capital accessories.” Reactionaries wanted to assert a class struggle between their audience and some sort of cultural bourgeoisie. They converged on similar groups of targets because ambiguously well-off, ambiguously powerful professionals are a really hateable outgroup. More potential believers have encountered a blank face bureaucrat or a petty tyrant of a manager than have interacted with a classic bourgeois.

I would guess that the Marxists got their wish. Today, the layman assumes socialists have it out for anyone above the median income. The perceived class divide has moved past PMCs.

That tide has yet to come in for reactionaries. They’re more likely to keep using the term because they’re still convincing the public.

Specifically, it's a term originating in the 70s, used to obscure the fact that the idea was coined by James Burnham, a former Marxist-turned-anti-Communist, in the 40s - thereby making the idea safe for Leftist intellectuals to discuss. Burnham simply called them the Managerial Class.

The more you know, thanks!