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naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   35891 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 3, 2022

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This inevitably devolves into the norms catering to the biggest crybaby, which in practice again means the norms of the community are implicitly leftist.

If it meant that, the results would be all the Red Tribers getting banned and this place turning into a generic Blue forum. What is actually happening is that this place slowly bleeds to death as blues find it net-inhospitable and leave. The norms are designed to make that process as slow as possible, with the forlorn hope that it will be slower than the intake of new quality contributors.

You don't seem to disagree with me, you just think it's good and necessary.

I want what this place offers. I value being able to have conversations like this one. I value the opportunity to sharpen my mind against the best the other side has to offer. I want to learn as much as I possibly can, and I can't do that effectively on CWR or the Schism.

Sure, it's down to values at the end. I think we have a fairly large difference of opinion on what those values actually are and what they imply, though. Again, CWR seems as though it provides exactly what you want, yet you are posting here and not there. Why would this be the case, if this place did not provide something CWR lacks?

If it meant that, the results would be all the Red Tribers getting banned and this place turning into a generic Blue forum.

Indeed. If it meant that, we'd see things like rule changes to make proggy blues more comfortable; maybe we'd even see topic bans to slow the reds down; we'd see notorious blue-aligned posters get away with nearly anything, consistently (it'd be quite a.. Darwinian environment); we'd see bans consistently hitting one side of the political divide harder than the other. We'd see moves to enshrine blue values like pathological civility and gullibility into the very DNA of the forum.

In other words, we'd be where we are.

Again, CWR seems as though it provides exactly what you want, yet you are posting here and not there. Why would this be the case, if this place did not provide something CWR lacks?

CWR's main issue is that it's on Reddit. I loathe Reddit. If they migrated to their own site, I'd be there.

maybe we'd even see topic bans to slow the reds down

Can I just interject here that there was a temporary moratorium, once, on one single topic because it was just eating up all bandwidth, and that it happened several years ago and yet here you are still bitching about it like banning topics is a thing we do?

I mean, most of your objections are transparently false, but this is the most eye-rolling one of all.

You can do whatever you want, but unless you're putting the red hat on I don't care what you have to say. You're all the same people and the same staff with the same attitudes that were problems years ago, time isn't some magic panacea that'll make me forget what you've done.

That's cool, you can keep whining about things that happened years ago. I'm just correcting your inaccuracies. As for not caring what I have to say, obviously you do.

I dislike you and I will almost always be willing to express that. Do not mistake that for investment in your opinions.

If it meant that, we'd see things like rule changes to make proggy blues more comfortable;

We saw that, but only to a minimal extent. It was not and is not an unbounded drift, because the mods do in fact appear to have fairly durable principles. @Amadan, @Gattsaru and I have had some remarkably frank exchanges of views, and I have never seen him abuse his mod privilege's toward us or anyone else.

maybe we'd even see topic bans to slow the reds down

I don't think the topic ban "slowed the reds down" even slightly. Making every conversation into an argument over HBD on the basis of poorly-evidenced post-hoc rationalizations was not productive, and Red takes on the culture war generally were not rare during its duration.

Below, there's a post about Theil's new dating sight, which offers the question "why do women hate conservative men?" There's a couple posts pointing out that the evidence presented doesn't remotely support the initial claim... and then there's like a dozen sub-threads taking the initial claim at face value and building towers of supposition off the initial shoddy foundation. It's an example of a regrettable tendency of the locals, to simply run with whatever prompt they're given according to individual narrative. It's a tendency that is not healthy or productive in the long run, and sometimes mod intervention is the best way to keep a lid on it. I think the HBD moratorium was one of those times.

In any case it ended years ago, and it is not in force now, so you are free to make whatever arguments you like on the subject.

we'd see notorious blue-aligned posters get away with nearly anything, consistently (it'd be quite a.. Darwinian environment)

This one I strongly disagree with. I spent quite a bit of time arguing with the poster in question, and even longer observing their methods. They got away with what they did because they were very, very good at their particular game. The tolerances that allowed them to operate is the same as the tolerances that allowed me to operate, and I note that they ate long-term bans and are now gone, while I did not and am still here. Meanwhile, I've seen several dozen Blues operating in bad faith without the advantage of actual one-in-a million social genius go down in flames, beating their heads to pulp against norms they couldn't abide.

we'd see bans consistently hitting one side of the political divide harder than the other.

I don't think I've actually seen this. As mentioned above, I've seen a lot of long-time Blues flame out or get banned, and it's not obvious to me that there's actually a disparity in bans between reds and blues.

We'd see moves to enshrine blue values like pathological civility and gullibility into the very DNA of the forum.

I disagree that there's a requirement for "pathological" civility or gullibility here. I don't think there's a position you personally hold that can't be presented here to good effect. Yes it requires effort, and yes, there is some level of bias baked into the nature of the place, and yes, the norms can often be annoying. Lots of things are annoying; a big part of maturity is learning to accept that fact with equanimity, and not let it distract you from the business at hand.

We saw that, but only to a minimal extent.

"I concede this happened, but it's not a big deal."

Okay. Yes it was.

In any case it ended years ago, and it is not in force now, so you are free to make whatever arguments you like on the subject.

Yet it still happened, and only against a right-wing hobby horse.

This one I strongly disagree with. I spent quite a bit of time arguing with the poster in question, and even longer observing their methods. They got away with what they did because they were very, very good at their particular game.

"The norms are fine and not implicitly leftist because they enable traditional leftist methods of trolling" is not convincing me. Yes, Darwin managed to skirt by. He would not in an environment more to my liking.

I don't think I've actually seen this. As mentioned above, I've seen a lot of long-time Blues flame out or get banned, and it's not obvious to me that there's actually a disparity in bans between reds and blues.

If you add up all the bans, I'm confident you'll find more right-leaning than left-leaning names on it. For the obvious reason: incivility is a more typical right-coded transgression, and by far the most common reason for anyone to get banned.

I disagree that there's a requirement for "pathological" civility or gullibility here. I don't think there's a position you personally hold that can't be presented here to good effect. Yes it requires effort, and yes, there is some level of bias baked into the nature of the place, and yes, the norms can often be annoying. Lots of things are annoying; a big part of maturity is learning to accept that fact with equanimity, and not let it distract you from the business at hand.

I just the other day copped a warning for calling out a transparent bad-faith troll. Because calling people out is not something you're supposed to do here. That's a thoroughly bad status quo.

I also reject your definition of maturity.

I just the other day copped a warning for calling out a transparent bad-faith troll.

No, you copped a warning for calling someone a bad-faith troll. Subtle but significant difference there. The fact that this particular user was a long-time poster who has never had a history of trolling of any kind made it transparently obvious that you were just throwing a tantrum and namecalling because someone contradicted you.

Because calling people out is not something you're supposed to do here. That's a thoroughly bad status quo.

This is correct, though. "Calling people out," besides being obnoxious teen girl behavior more suitable for LiveJournal or Tumblr, is not productive. You may argue with people. You may disagree with them. You may express opinions about the quality of their arguments. You may not just fling insults because you've decided someone is a bad-faith troll and therefore you're "calling them out."

The fact that this particular user was a long-time poster who has never had a history of trolling of any kind made it transparently obvious that you were just throwing a tantrum and namecalling because someone contradicted you.

Your inability to not be fooled by transparent sneering does you no credit. You should replace this inappropriate pride of yours with a healthy dose of shame.

This is correct, though.

I know. Thanks for backing me up.

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