This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
This strikes me as low-effort, obnoxious, and insincere, but I'll give it more of a response than it deserves. Absent a poll in which leftists are asked to respond to the question "Is it okay to use racial slurs against black conservatives?", I will rely on my experience with leftists and my prediction as to what would happen if you go on a leftist forum and start calling black conservatives niggers. If you would like to test this, I will pre-register my bet that it will result in you being banned.
Calling them niggers, specifically, probably a problem. Calling them Uncle Toms, which is conveying the exact same sort of viciousness...
Leftists are okay with slurs, they're not okay with nigger. Nigger is a magic spell in the US. It should be in D&D as a Power Word.
We are getting into the weeds with the taxonomy of slurs, but it seems to be relevant.
"Nigger" is an insult because the meaning is basically "Black person, which is inherently a bad thing." "Uncle Tom" means a black person who is a traitor to his own people by collaborating with his oppressors.
Leftists do not think being black is inherently a bad thing. They do think that betraying your own people and siding with your oppressors is a bad thing. So one is a slur, and most leftists would agree it's a slur no matter who uses it (because you're saying it's shameful/insulting to be black). The other is a charge of being a morally bad person.
I am not debating whether either term is ever used "viciously" and/or inappropriately. Certainly many insults are unfair and inaccurate, and calling any black conservative an Uncle Tom certainly falls into that category. But they aren't the same kind of insult.
Well, technically... "nigger" used to have a meaning, before it got wiped out of collective consciousness. It was the black equivalent of "white trash". So, basically "black trash". (Same number of syllables, too.) A rural, backward, ignorant, barbarous, uncivilized ... hick, essentially. Someone who was of no value to any civilized society, and who could be of no value because they'd resist any attempt to make them have value, and be proud of doing so. A totally illegible person, to misuse a term from "Seeing Like A State".
And the part that made it so bad was that when it was used on someone like, say, Booker T. Washington, it implied that no matter how educated and successful he was, none of that mattered. IIRC, there was actually a (racist, obviously) saying, "scratch a black man and you'll find a nigger", which implied that all accomplishments were skin deep, and that at the slightest provocation, a modern educated black person would revert to "jungle savagery" (or however it would have been phrased back then). Which in turn was partly why the black intelligentsia of the time were so careful about their dignity and behavior.
The linguistic fate of the word has a sort of inverted parallel in the fate of "arse", the 4-letter word that was so filthy that we in America only remember the animal sound-alike "ass", and even now primarily associate the sound-alike with the forbidden term. (Whereas "cunt" used to have an animal sound-alike "coney", but for some reason we completely lost the sound-alike there.)
More options
Context Copy link
Like I said -- leftists are okay with slurs, they're just not okay with nigger, for the reasons you elaborated on.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
My comment was indeed sincere, however it was rooted in a misunderstanding about what "hard-R" referred to, which your reply clears up. Thanks for that, and I expect you're correct.
I won't deign to answer your charges of "low-effort" and "obnoxious."
Perhaps you were confusing it for the "R-word" or "R-slur," aka "retard/retarded?" I've noticed that there's a wide range in how taboo this slur is even in leftist circles. Where I grew up, the "R-word" would be only 1 level below the "hard-R" in terms of offensiveness, but I've noticed that in other environments with similar levels of leftism, it's used pretty freely without anyone noticing. E.g. I was shocked when I first noticed how much people used it on Twitch of all places, given how strict Twitch tends to be with authoritarian-left language policing.
More options
Context Copy link
Well, if you misunderstood what I meant, perhaps you were justified in asking for evidence. (What did you think "hard-R" referred to?)
I read you initially as demanding I provide evidence that leftists actually think "nigger" is a bad word. Which did indeed seem like some sort of very dumb and low-effort attempt at a gotcha.
I’ll chime in and add that I also did not have any clue what “hard-R” referred to and thought maybe it was “racist” or “retarded” until your clarification here.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link