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PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   36950 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 22, 2024

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I was never dumb enough to fall for this kind of thing, but for the record, I see the appeal, for people who are better at deceiving themselves. My great disappointment with the Trump presidency was that I wanted many elites - probably at least tens of thousands of them - rapidly publicly executed for their great and horrific Satanic treason. And for a brief historical moment, I was optimistic enough to think Trump might be willing and able to do that; "you'd be in jail", etc.

(Still not convinced, years later, that Pizzagate was actually fake. You've most likely been sold a bill of goods about it being ridiculous and unevidenced.)

Anyway, I was young and dumb then - I had hope and energy for politics - but I remember that feeling. And it's made it awfully surreal for me to see the right wing as a whole, in the wake of the Trump assassination attempt, citing norms of civility and how you're not supposed to want enemy politicians dead. So much has been memoryholed. The young right-wing movement really has been eaten by the establishment.

Out of curiosity, do you have any examples of a country where a leader rapidly and publicly executed tens of thousands of elites and things went well afterwards (e.g. the country did not descend into civil war and standard of living did not decline substantially)? I ask because my inclination is to believe that such an action would have horrible consequences and typically only occurs in countries that are (or are about to become) basket cases—the French revolution or the USSR in the 1920s and 30s. However, I am not knowledgeable enough to be certain my impression is historically accurate.

Out of curiosity, do you have any examples of a country where a leader rapidly and publicly executed tens of thousands of elites and things went well afterwards (e.g. the country did not descend into civil war and standard of living did not decline substantially)?

Most mainland European countries in 1946.

Only a few dozen of the most senior surviving Nazis were executed. The vast majority (in excess of 98%, certainly) of the elite class in every European country West of the Iron Curtain survived.

The soviets exterminated most of the eastern European intelligencia for being the wrong type of communists, catching any the Nazis didn't get.

It did not go well for Eastern Europe afterwards.

Out of curiosity, do you have any examples of a country where a leader rapidly and publicly executed tens of thousands of elites and things went well afterwards (e.g. the country did not descend into civil war and standard of living did not decline substantially)?

Well, the closest thing that comes to my mind is Indonesia under Suharto:

Under his "New Order" administration, Suharto constructed a strong, centralised and military-dominated government. What started as an oligarchic military dictatorship evolved into a personalistic authoritarian regime centered around Suharto.[14] An ability to maintain stability over a sprawling and diverse Indonesia and an avowedly anti-communist stance won him the economic and diplomatic support of the West during the Cold War. For most of his presidency, Indonesia experienced significant industrialisation, economic growth, and improved levels of educational attainment.[15][16] As a result, he was given the title "Father of Development".[17] According to Transparency International, Suharto was one of the most corrupt leaders in modern history, having embezzled an alleged US$15–35 billion during his rule.[18][19]

Suharto remains a controversial and divisive figure within the Indonesian general public. Many Indonesians have praised his 31-year regime for its economic development, rapid industrialization, and perceived political stability, while others have denounced his dictatorial rule, extensive human rights violations and corruption.[20][21] Plans to award the status of National Hero to Suharto are being considered by the Indonesian government and have been debated vigorously in Indonesia.[22]

From Wikipedia's article on the Indonesian mass killings of 1965–66:

Large-scale killings and civil unrest primarily targeting members and supposed sympathizers of the Communist Party (PKI) were carried out in Indonesia from 1965 to 1966. Other affected groups included alleged communist sympathisers, Gerwani women, trade unionists,[14] ethnic Javanese Abangan,[1] ethnic Chinese, atheists, so-called "unbelievers", and alleged leftists in general. According to the most widely published estimates at least 500,000 to 1 million people were killed,[3]: 3 [4][5][7] with some estimates going as high as two to three million.[15][16] The atrocities, sometimes described as a genocide[17][2][3] or politicide,[18][19] were instigated by the Indonesian Army under Suharto. Research and declassified documents demonstrate the Indonesian authorities received support from foreign countries such as the United States and the United Kingdom.[20][21]: 157 [22][23][24][25]

(According to Macrotrends.net, the population of Indonesia in 1965 was about 101 million, so we're talking about 0.5-3% of the population being killed.)

How many of those people were "elite," I can't say. And the help from the anti-communist side of the Cold War definitely played a role in maintaining stability while carrying out such a massive purge. But Indonesia did indeed grow more prosperous in the aftermath.

Of course, things would need to be pretty terrible to justify such extreme measures.

So do you think things are that terrible in America? Because honestly things don't seem that bad to me, especially judging by historical standards. I'm not happy with everything in the US, but overall my life is pretty good and the parts of it that are bad would not be helped by the execution of tens of thousands of elites.

There are many cases of a white terror working out rather well. Other cases of it going badly, of course, so it seems like a high-risk maneuver.

One interesting example of mass purging of the elite working out well was Ivan the terrible’s ascent to power, marked by butchering the noblemen to enable him to centralize power under the crown. This was probably good for the average Russian. This pattern would later repeat after Stalin’s death, when Beriya was murdered by Zhukov and his supporters purged in the process of making Kruschev premier- a vast improvement over both Stalin and Beriya.

I guess I should distinguish between two senses of "working well": first, working well for the leader executing their opponents and second, working well for most people in the country. I think you're kind of addressing both senses here, but I'm mostly interested in the second.

For Ivan the Terrible, do you have any reference explaining your claim that his ascent was probably good for the average Russian? I don't necessarily disbelieve you, but it's not a claim I've heard before. Also, how many people were actually executed during Khrushchev's rise to power? I know he was responsible for a lot of deaths during Stalin's purges and I know (as you mentioned) that Beria was killed, but I know little about Khrushchev so I don't know how bloody his rule was more generally.

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