This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Scott is carrying a bias from one on one patient treatment. He doesn't seem to understand the power law aspect at play. It's actually a fairly small number of people causing a whole lot of problems.
The top 100-200 craziest addicts consume vast amounts of resources being on the streets. Institutionallizing them would make the rest of the homeless situation much more manageable and free up a lot of resources.
Just wait until ESPN becomes desperate for content. The Tenderloin League PowerRankings are going to be wild.
More seriously - my assumption is that, much like major drug dealers, the top 100-200 most disruptive homeless people are super well known to local law enforcement and social workers. It would seem like that's the perfect place to start with targeted intervention to include assignment to asylum.
The big balancing act is threshold for non-voluntary commitment. I think it's too permissive now, but I get very concerned for it going too far the other way. Then, every Vet having a bad day gets shipped off.
The balancing act strikes me as similar to arguments about the death penalty. OK, I understand the concerns with killing an innocent man because we set the threshold too low, but can we at least execute the guy that literally live streamed himself murdering people in a grocery store because of their race? Likewise, I understand the concern with institutionalizing people that shouldn't be, but can we pick up the raving lunatic from the park that's raving in the park literally every day? Threshold concerns and slippery slopes are valid, but it's pretty clear which side of the line we're on at the moment, so let's think directionally for a bit.
I saw you mention that guy recently elsewhere, and I think no, we shouldn't execute him, we should give him a medal for bringing disparate statistics closer to proportionality.
What a profoundly shameful and mindless thing to say.
Don't feed the trolls.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I agree. The conversation is so diluted at this point that the obvious raving-mad-man in the park cannot be dealt with. Hell, looking at the Daniel Penny case, even if the raving madman attacks you or others if the right culture war angle is invoked, defending yourself (and others) is equivalent to a lynching.
Castle Doctrine states for the win
<law geek mode> The Castle Doctrine is irrelevant here - the Castle Doctrine (which applies in every DTR state except Nebraska) says that even in duty-to-retreat jurisdictions you don't have a duty to retreat if a self-defence situation arrives in your own home. It isn't relevant in jurisdictions with strong stand-your-ground laws. I strongly suspect you mean SYG states for the win.
This is definitely a case where the SYG vs DTR scissor I wrote about previously applies, in that if you aren't familiar with the basic assumptions of SYG culture Penny is obviously a murderer and only a moron could acquit, and vice versa for someone unfamiliar with the basic assumptions behind DTR culture. But I don't think that SYG vs DTR (NY is DTR) as a legal issue will be relevant in this case - the trial is going to be about whether the length of time Penny maintained the chokehold after Neely passed out is so excessive that in constitutes either negligent or reckless homicide. </law geek mode>
Thank you for this!
What's say about DTR vs self-defense for a situation in which an obviously mentally unwell person is making unpredictable and violent gestures but not necessarily at a direct target.
"obviously mentally unwell" = Would pass the "reasonable person" standard. (i.e. mumbling to themselves, does not respond to verbal interaction in reasonable ways, seems to be addressing things that are not there etc.)
"unpredictable / violent gestures" = Gestures with any body part that resemble violent actions - strangling, clawing, punching, kicking etc. Presence of a weapon not necessary.
If both of those conditions are present in a public setting, what's the law geekery I need to be aware of?
I don't think it is actually a DTR vs SYG situation - what my effortpost was trying to say is that the fundamental difference between DTR and SYG is how you think about a situation where both sides contributed to a dispute escalating to violence but one side was clearly "in the right" on the merits of the original dispute that was being escalated.
Your question is closer to "When is the threat posed by a dangerous-looking crazy person sufficiently grave and imminent that you can take them out?", where as far as I am aware the answer is "Whatever the jury thinks is reasonable."
Given that Penny isn't being charged with murder or 1st degree manslaughter (in NY, any intentional, unlawful violence which ends in a death and doesn't qualify as murder is 1st degree manslaughter) it looks like in this particular case the prosecution are planning to concede that Penny could legally take down Neely if he did so competently, and instead are going to argue that Penny was criminally irresponsible in the way he did it.
"All good Samaritans must be licensed and up to date with their paperwork"
-- New York State, 2025.
It wasn't a paperwork violation - it was a competence violation.
"All good Samaritans must know the difference between lethal and less-lethal violence and make an honest attempt to act on that knowledge" is sufficient to condemn Penny (unless you are the kind of right-winger who favours summary execution of street crazies)
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Even in Texas and Florida, that would not meet the legal threshold for self defense of any sort, let alone lethal violence.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link