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PaperclipPerfector  4mo ago (text post)   29974 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 1, 2024

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Jesus, the Gish Gallop distributed Motte & Bailey of rotating arguments. First it was inherently fraudulent[1]. Then it was fraudulent-by-method-of-adoption[2]. Then it there-exists-fraud-in-fact via stuffed ballots or water leaks[3].

In any event, do you think the result in Wisconsin numerically reflect the intended desire of the eligible voters?

I'm not responsible for whatever other arguments people are making -- mine is true.

If by 'eligible voters' you mean 'the ones that voted in accordance with State law', then no, probably not. If you mean something else, you should be working towards legislative reform to make it easier for people to (legally) vote -- as in Oregon I suppose.

For the sake of reducing confusion, if you’re replying to their thread, it helps to distinguish.

And by eligible voters, I mean those which are entitled and not otherwise forbidden to vote.

For the sake of reducing confusion, if you’re replying to their thread, it helps to distinguish.

I think it's quite obvious that opinions I state in a thread are mine and not somebody else's -- do I need to add a disclaimer?

And by eligible voters, I mean those which are entitled and not otherwise forbidden to vote.

If an otherwise eligible voter submits his ballot in the form of a homemade crayon-drawing, it is not a legal ballot and should not be counted. Same goes for mailins, in jurisdictions where the legislature has not passed a law allowing them and defining the procedures for their acceptance.

I agree, they should not be counted, perhaps allowing for some amount of reliance of voters on reasonable expectations. Obviously no voter should expect that a homemade ballot counts.

But it would still be true that the complaint against them would be “this is not procedurally appropriate” and not “this is not an accurate rendition of voter intent” or “this is fraudulent”. Those have specific meanings.

The fraudulent part was when Democratically-aligned bureaucrats conspired to have the votes (which happened to be disproportionately Democratic) cast & counted.

The ballots were illegal, which the people taking the votes didn't like -- so they counted them anyways.

How is "counts invalid ballots" not central "election fraud"? (particularly when that act favours the counters' preferred candidate)

I think you're subtly shifting "invalid" there. A ballot that accurately represent the intent of an eligible & qualified voter who has voted only once is not invalid in the sense required to be fraud. It's certainly not central to election fraud, that conveys the notion of stuffed ballots or dead people voting or multiple-voting.

A ballot that accurately represent the intent of an eligible & qualified voter who has voted only once is not invalid in the sense required to be fraud.

As with the homemade crayon ballot, the person submitting that ballot is not committing (deliberate) fraud -- the person who counts it is. What is 'central to election fraud' if not 'counting ballots that do not comply with local laws'? (particularly in this case, as the ballots in question were known to skew D)

Counting a ballot submitted at 9:05 when the polls were meant to close is a pretty good example of non-central.

Central to fraud would be something that changes the result as compared to an accurate count of eligible voters each of which voted once.

For example if central fraud:

  • modifying vote totals
  • individuals voting more than once
  • counting ballots for a candidate other than the one specified
  • ineligible voters voting

That’s not a Gish gallop.

At worst, jkf is defending a different position than sliders. Call it sanewashing, or maybe distributed motte-and-bailey?

Also, I'll add, that JKF is defending a different position that sliders, but he could also clarify it because he's responding to a thread of comments relating to sliders.

For example, if he is advancing fraudulent-by-method-of-adoption[2] then he could also write "VBM is legitimate when properly adopted but not when adopted via procedurally-invalid means, hence I believe in Wisconsin it is illegitimate because ".

That would probably elicit a very different response. It would also clarify what is the crux of JKFs argument.

[ And if JKF believes that VBM is illegitimate even when adopted via procedurally-proper means, then clarify that would also be helpful! I don't mean to say he can only adopt the position above. ]

Yeah, I think your question about Wisconsin is a good way to clarify.

I put my own objection to sliders here. “Fraud was plausible” is very easy to defend. “Fraud changed the result,” not so much.

That is fair. I accept the correction and have edited it.

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