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My impression of the financial things were that it was Thomas just coming along on trips with his friend, and that this was mostly just lefty journalists looking for any means possible to discredit the court now that it's making rulings they don't like. That said, I get trying to avoid the appearance of impropriety.
I'd pin Dobbs as the thing that most hurt their reputation in the recent past, though I'm not certain of that.
That said, you certainly are right that some of the justices are not making their decisions in order to placate public opinion, but to accomplish their agenda. But has Thomas, for example, ever done otherwise? I think they're mostly just honest, if motivated.
Yeah, it's tough because reading all the ProPublica reports, it seems Thomas and Crow are like, legitimate friends. I do feel strongly about appearance of impropriety being the standard to shoot for, though, so... yeah. I sympathize with the difficulty of having to be really fucking careful about who your friends are, but at the same time I feel like yeah, they DO need to be really fucking careful who their friends are. Otherwise maybe turn down the nomination. I'd love to see some of that happen once in a while.
I mean my fundamental bias but one I'll defend is that these guys are just people. People are usually relatively honest and normally motivated. I will say that if for decades you are taking ultra-luxury trips, but in the back of your head you know if you piss them off too much they might stop, that kind of thing does tend to distort thinking just a hair. And there's no way you're taking weeks and weeks of vacations with people and you never talk politics? Ain't no way.
What I saw one article advocate for, I'd love for it to be the case, is to ask actual questions, high-quality ones that are answerable, in the confirmation hearings to try and get a better sense for some fundamental values and styles of different potential justices. Things like these (not a perfect list) that include stuff like when was the last time you changed your mind? What's a bias you struggle with? What kind of effect would you like to have on the court? Could you explain more details on why you lean originalist/textualist/etc?
I suspect the court will be fine. I would go nuclear is court-packing or something similar happened, no matter who. I strongly, strongly advocate for what the conversation should really center on: Maybe let's talk about some Constitutional Amendments to the Supreme Court process? I'm open to that. Would necessarily need to be bipartisan. In practice, I'm not super sure what it would take (if even possible) for the GOP to get on board something like that however. Maybe make some sort of general, government ethics amendment?
Yeah, I don't imagine any concessions from Republicans unless forced to it. They've finally managed to get a hold of the court, after nearly a century of leftist control, and now, all of a sudden, it's everyone's talking about how the justices (but only the conservative ones) are corrupt, and how the court's extreme and biased (never mind all the different splits), and that the court needs to be reformed. There's something of a double standard. (And I do genuinely think that the conservative justices are less likely to make decisions from their political views, because they have more of a judicial philosophy of the senses of the text already being set in stone, not just what they want it to be.)
Regarding propriety and trips and so forth: I'm kind of torn over how seriously this should be taken. It's obviously politically motivated and going looking to do harm to the justices that they hate, and I'd be very surprised if there were anything nefarious going on. I'd certainly not expect him to be influenced by money; he seems to always be ruling for his own, radical in its lack of regard for precedent, vision of what the constitution said, often alone. I certainly imagine he talks politics with Crowe, but I'd be surprised if that affected his jurisprudence, as he doesn't just rule according to whatever suits current Republican preferences. And I don't know that I think it's all that good of an idea to reward bad action from the left like that, when I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't have affected anything. I'm curious how general the recent lesson is about other figures on the right, that you can ignore cancellation now, so long as you have a conservative base, and you don't treat the problems as serious just because your opponents treat them as serious. That is, I don't know if treating them as real would simply serve to undermine tte court's credibility by there being a consensus that something is wrong. At the same time, it would genuinely be better if there wasn't this that could be used to attack them.
I also like the questions, but I don't know how well they would be applied in practice. I anticipate that those in Congress would use them in order to probe for weaknesses to jump on, and so the judicial nominees would try to answer in ways that said the least that they could be attacked for, instead of seeking to be the most revealing.
For the reasons above I'd be hesitant to go along with a push to constitutionally reform the court—capitulating would give credence to the complaints and make people more likely to think that the court is currently bad, when, in my view, it's the best court we've had in a long while. If it would genuinely make it hard to complain about the court, I'd be for it, but I don't expect that, and would anticipate the opposite. I'd also worry that something like term limits would serve to further politicize the court, by enshrining in law something intended to balance the court in a partisan manner, instead of just assuming that everyone has an obligation to be fair interpreters.
Something of a double standard, maybe, but not all the way. Right-wing people for years have complained about the Court doing too much that is legislation-adjacent, doing outright activism, or imposing liberal social values, and those arguments were accompanied by arguments about maybe not corruption as explicitly, but certainly ideological capture and bias (claims that all the liberal colleges are brainwashing law students, and I think there were complaints about lifelong appointments too). We have conveniently forgotten these argument simply because they haven't happened as loudly recently, but I do remember them! They probably aren't exactly equal to current complaints.
I like your comment and the thoughtfulness there. It's possible my dream of avoiding even the appearance of impropriety is unrealistic, but I don't think so. Ideally, court reform conversations would be actual conversations, where we can talk about exactly this sort of thing like "are term limits even going to be helpful, or would they backfire?" This can cause us to rationally examine what parts of the SC do and don't work. We might find some parts actually DO work better than the public thinks, in the process. In other words, I think opening reform as a valid discussion would result in more light than heat. There's already plenty of heat and I think legitimizing the discussion might be a good release valve. Related: somewhat unusually, I don't love the idea of term limits for Congresspeople, I think it would only worsen the revolving door, and ignores how lawmakers also gain positive experience and specializations over time. Monetary reform for campaigns and politics generally might be a better Amendment candidate. Or simply pushing for better stock divestment, etc.
The idea behind the questions is that the current questioning process is relatively effective about determining left-right axis location, but not very effective in determining the other axes. As shown in some of the discussions here, many justices form their own brands, and there's stuff like the 3-3-3 split. Maybe better questions can allow the Senate to be more predictive in locating a nominee's position on other axes besides the simple and often ill-suited ideological one.
Allow me to take back the concessions I made on Thomas.
Fix the Court gives me the vibe of a one or two person outfit with strong personal views. I think they were and are an okay starting point for tracking recusals more broadly, which was my reference. I don't think I ever used them as a source, and probably would not use them as a source, for more of the in detail financial reporting about gifts. ProPublica is a stronger team and I think they are doing good work that's fairly evenhanded. They usually state what they know and approximately how certain they are (e.g. they will say if they looked at direct proof, it's hearsay, they found corroboration of trip, etc.) I've read almost all of their stuff all the way through, and a few counterclaims all the way through as well. Now don't get me wrong, it's not like they are saints without an agenda. But I feel they typically adhere to decently good journalistic standards, near as I can tell.
IMO, the link provided does a guilt by association trick, combined with a strawman. It talks about FTC almost the entire article, when they aren't really the experts nor the original source for most of the scandal claims. In fact I expect FTC to have errors. ProPublica less so. What it says specifically about ProPublica, a drive-by broadside right at the end:
I happen to know exactly what they are talking about in the second article. The article cited refers readers to some of the earlier reporting and assumes readers read those. The original reporting that first broke the trips went into extreme detail about exactly what the rules and laws were about trips (which often differed) and the ethical debate behind them. I think they thought, and I partially agree, that re-treading the same ground in an article framed explicitly as an update to a previous story was less necessary. The update article cited is only like two pages. The original investigation was something more like 20 pages. Obviously the original can go into more detail. And in the original articles, you can clearly see that they advance the (substantive!) argument that rules allowing transportation to not be disclosed are not only something that seems unethical to the average person, but furthermore, cruises and yacht trips are not only transportation, they are also lodging. Again, I refer you to my argument that we want to hold SC justices to a "appearance of impropriety" higher standard, which is not just my projection or wish, it's the explicit policy goal of the Supreme Court ITSELF. Why would it be bad to hold them to their own moral standard?
The inclusion of a single error also deliberately ignores quite a few cases where, as PP mentions, they actually did find legitimate issues that various Justices later fixed. A single error on a single trip does not discredit the reporting. Most of their reporting focused on a few other examples where more info was available. For example, the numerous luxury retreats. Or the New Zealand yacht trip that did happen, and wasn't disclosed, and we know for a fact this happened because, among other evidence, we have a photo of Thomas' handwritten thank you in a book he gave to a yacht worker mentioning the trip. And finally, a smear is not a smear if... it's true. Their main point is that there is no enforcement mechanism for ethics rules, that at least some justices are skirting common-sense disclosures due to rule technicalities, and the fact that we can only find out about these concerning things via extensive and laborious investigation is, yes, concerning for everyone!
Good points. I imagine propublica is of course motivated and lopsided in attention given, but that makes sense that their work would be better quality.
And, thanks for always being reasonable.
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You're right that there were complaints both ways about judicial activism. I happen to think the left does more of it, and is more openly motivated by whatever they want to be true, but fair enough.
I think more policy conversations in general would be good. But how would you propose they happen? I think, perhaps unusually in our history, though I'm not sure about that, a lot of politics is governed by the lowest common denominator: whatever appeals to the most people online, oriented towards their respective bases. (That's not exactly right, but close enough). How do you manage a constructive conversation like that? You could have one, but you'd have to avoid making it about scoring points. I'm sure some politicians are sincere enough and sufficiently non-cynical to do this. But even then, you'd still have to make it be something that reaches the collective consciousness to get traction, unless you can manage to get enough behind the scenes. But it's popular legitimacy that matters mostly when we're looking at it from the view of the polarization of the discourse, not what Congress, for example, thinks, so behind-the-scenes isn't quite what we're asking for here.
I like the Free Press's debates, even if there used to be better debates.
Good point regarding questions. Having them asked by a sympathetic person would help.
Ideally, we would hold some sort of convention in total secrecy, then the convention would release a list of possible proposals for reform and ask the public which option they would prefer. We could then have a period of public parlor talk and debate. If the big parties avoided immediately staking out a stance, I think there would be a decent chance of people selecting a favorite. The convention system is sadly almost never used anymore, but can be very effective.
Ah, conventions would help. Hardly anything else could get the requisite solemnity.
Some difficulties: it requires people to work together, and in an age of the internet, complete secrecy is hard to maintain.
And of course, whether online partisans will promptly polarize the question.
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Why it rings hollow to me is there wasn’t the same concern over Sotomayor taking millions in advances from a publisher while not recusing on a case that they directly were involved in. That is, the complaint about Thomas seems politically motivated. The ones about Alito are just silly (and we did learn that you should find someone who loves you the way Mrs Alito loves flags).
According to Fix The Court which has a nice list of missed recusals and seems to be pretty evenhanded, this happens a fair amount, more than I'd like. An earlier case, according to details I see from them (but opinions and speculation my own), possibly was missed due to the publisher being Knopf by name at the time, which in reality was a subsidiary of Penguin who was named. Beyond that, it appears many justices simply make long sheets of specific companies, and don't always update them correctly nor properly do their due diligence in looking deeper. For example, in the more recent publisher example, Gorsuch also failed to recuse for the same reason, and Breyer accidentally recused because his list was out of date!
I feel strongly about reform but am pretty clear eyed about the recent stuff being dramatized. I thought it was in this thread, but I guess not -- the Alito stuff as I've said is garbage and that was clear pretty early on. While you could say "maybe they are picking on Thomas specifically" they have found enough unrelated and significant ethical lapses I'm convinced, and think it's pretty clear to those who have investigated, that there's an actual pattern there.
What I’m saying is if I thought most of the criticisms were actually concerned about the integrity of the court, then I wouldn’t have as much an issue. But as it is, I think the vast majority of the criticism is simply people who don’t like the court’s rulings looking for ways to undermine the court.
I see the left do this all of the time. When they controlled the court, it was sacrosanct. The moment it switches hands, we start hearing about its legitimacy. Republican attacks on the court historically were about theory of law; democrats aren’t talking about theory of law. Democrats did the same thing with Twitter and Elon. Once he unlocked a major communication platform from their grip, Elon became a far right racist. Funny how that works.
That's fine. I've observed that I'm more likely than most to be willing to examine arguments made in bad faith in spite of them being made in bad faith. Partly because I don't think bad faith is as common as popularly perceived, but also because I'm skeptical that most people can safely and accurately enough tell the difference. It's through this lens that I'm sympathetic to current court criticisms. Related: persecution complexes. Doesn't mean the persecution isn't real, but it does tend to distort perception. I genuinely believe that the right has a persecution complex far beyond anyone on the left, except for maybe Marxists.
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It's so obviously grasping at Straws. Thomas has been over of the most ideologically consistent justices in modern history, there is just no good evidence of him throwing cases in any way. It's this weird mistake theory belief that no one can believe anything different than what you believe, so if anyone acts like they believe it there must be corruption involved.
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