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PaperclipPerfector  5mo ago (text post)   26512 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 3, 2024

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Yes, A because I live in 2024.

Consider also:

C — Fire is the product of combustion of materials with oxygen in both 1700 and 2024. I know this because there is a near universal consensus on the matter in 2024.

D — Fire is due to the liberation of phlogiston. People in 1700 know this because there is a near universal consensus on the matter in 1700.

Do you believe in the symmetry of C/D? Or do you believe 300 years ago fire really was phlogiston?

Maybe in the future people will have a different view on fire or whatever else. That’s unknown-able to us. They are welcome to it. And anyone can got and promote that view and, if it takes hold, good for them!

Do you believe in the symmetry of C/D? Or do you believe 300 years ago fire really was phlogiston?

I believe that combustion consumes oxygen as opposed to liberating phlogiston. I assume you do too. The next question is why this is true. Do you believe that this is true because (1) a majority of people in 2023 believe it is true, or because (2) regardless of what a majority of people believe, combustion actually consumes oxygen as opposed to liberating phlogiston?

Do you believe that this is true because (1) a majority of people in 2023 believe it is true, or because (2) regardless of what a majority of people believe, combustion actually consumes oxygen as opposed to liberating phlogiston?

This question has two very different parsings:

  • A Do (you believe this is true) because ...
  • B Do you believe (this is true because ...)

I think this is probably the root of the issue, the difference between epistemic and causal modes of thinking.

My point is purely epistemic -- if everyone believes something and a small bunch of people don't, they are very usually wrong. Of course, in retrospect knowing what we know now, one can find a contrarian in the past to our liking. So it does happen, it's just that prospectively, for every such instance there are far more where they're just plain nuts. For every John Brown there's a thousand Ted Kaczynskis, so do the math.

So it does happen, it's just that prospectively, for every such instance there are far more where they're just plain nuts. For every John Brown there's a thousand Ted Kaczynskis, so do the math.

John Brown was also quite evidently nuts, so probably not the example you should have gone with.

Let proposition A be that combustion consumes oxygen, as opposed to releasing phlogiston. Do you believe (1) (Proposition A is true because a majority of people in 2023 believe it is true), or (2) (proposition A is true, regardless of what a majority of people believe, because combustion actually consumes oxygen as opposed to liberating phlogiston)?

I think you using the term "regardless" in a way that doesn't distinguish epistemic from causal thinking.

(2) is true but I would amend it to clarify that

Proposition A is true, regardless[causally] of what a majority of people believe

Would you also affirm the following?

  • race based slavery is immoral regardless [causally]of what a majority of people believe.

Yes.

Is this consistent with your above statement, "They do"?

@NelsonRushton: Whatever argument that is, it will have to prove that majorities don't decide morality

@anon_: They do. And the majority now has decided that slavery was pretty awful.

Yes. [causally] is the difference you're trying to sneak in there.

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