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PaperclipPerfector  5mo ago (text post)   26569 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 3, 2024

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Uh huh. And no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

You’re quoting a very popular historical excuse to keep the Catholics down and/or out. I hear JFK was controversial for the same reason. But if you’ve got to split hairs to figure out why it doesn’t apply to this particular guy, perhaps it’s not actually a reasonable stereotype?

When was the last time you saw one betray the U.S. for Rome, anyway?

I am Catholic. It’s not some popular historical excuse. It’s legitimate.

And yes if you publically declare yourself against fundamental Catholic doctrine you are in fact not Catholic. You are ethnic Catholic.

The reason Catholics could not be POTUS is because we had an oath to the Pope. If your not doing that then I don’t know what to say. You are just an ethnic Catholic.

I would betray the US for Rome. Though in reality I would not be betraying the US for Rome I would be leading the US on the correct path.

Though in reality I would not be betraying the US for Rome I would be leading the US on the correct path.

That seems more like a rationalization. The papacy has been corrupted by politics any number of times in history. What makes you sure Rome would actually have America's best interests at heart?

Also the Pope himself seems to somewhat disagree with you in that Biden has not been excommunicated, has taken Communion in Rome and is the President. So potentially you are wrong and Rome is right, or you are right and Rome is making decisions based on political considerations (that excommunicating a Catholic US President would be a bad idea) and if that is true then you also can't be sure that other choices are actually made for the right reasons?

Either way your surety upon this subject seems like it is built on shaky ground.

The reason Catholics could not be POTUS is because we had an oath to the Pope.

What's this called?

Papal Primacy.

There are some complications in theology but basically that.

And yes I think there is a fundamental difference between a sinner out of commune with the Church for their personal behavior and someone who promotes others to sin.

Right, but what's the Oath itself called and when do Catholics make it?

Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

Look, that’s nice(ne) and all, but it doesn’t actually make you to do anything. One can “believe” all the correct things, but when pressed, choose the wrong action. Such is sin.

The question is what is the oath.

There is a fundamental difference between sin and not believing in the church.

Right. I’m saying that professing the creed, even wholehearted belief in it, is not the same as an oath to the Pope.

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As another practicing Catholic, there's no formal oath of allegiance unless you're assuming a clerical office.

I think you were just trying to get @sliders1234 to admit this point, but for other readers who may be unclear -- the allegation that Catholics have divided loyalties stem from the obedience Catholics have to obey the body of church teaching along with any refinements or developments of doctrine provided by the Magisterium (Pope's and bishops). So if I were to become president, I could not properly represent a constituency that favored something that ran counter to church teaching, since my loyalty to God and Church trumps my loyalty to the American state.

I think this has fallen out of favor since the majority of people now probably have an allegiance that trumps their allegiance to America (Evangelical Christianity, Progressivism, Global Socialism, etc).

For other Christians I think/hope they would likewise say loyalty to God and his teachings would have always trumped State. In the past they had less conflict because the State was more explicitly their form of Christianity. And their teachings were not explicitly bound by a rule maker in another country but were more like a conscience or Holy Spirit type thing.

Nicene Creed also gets close to being an oath.

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