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PaperclipPerfector  5mo ago (text post)   28013 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 27, 2024

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I guess I'm wondering what this looks like. Is the idea that the NY prosecutor is going to have prove Cohen guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Skeptical that's the actual standard.

No. Donald Trump says, "That's not a crime," and when they check how it is possible for the mostly uncontested facts to comprise a campaign finance crime, they will see that it is, in fact, not a crime. Like, have you ever read an appellate decision? ...have you ever read one where they do this sort of thing? Where it's like, "Yeah, this is what happened, and that is what the law says, but if we're going to read this law in any way that comports with the Constitution, it cannot possibly make this set of facts a crime." This happens regularly, even in the circuit courts. Maybe even just start with Citizens United. It has the campaign finance/first amendment angle, too. The court was definitely all, "Yeah, this is not a crime."

But Citizens United was about whether those particular defendants had committed a crime. The analogy is Cohen appealing his conviction. What's the citation for a case where some person A is appealing their conviction and a court decides some other person B has not committed a crime they pleaded guilty to?

The court doesn't have to decide anything about Person B's case. For the third time, Cohen's case has nothing to do with it. They have to decide whether the underlying facts comprise a crime, for Trump's case. Cohen's plea is literally the least persuasive authority possible for whether it is a crime. It would be slightly more persuasive if he was convicted at trial, but that's still nowhere near binding on the appeals courts. If Cohen had appealed his case on the grounds that it's a non-crime, and the appeals court in question ruled that it was, after all, a crime, that would be significantly more persuasive, but not binding unless it was the same appeals court. And of course, Trump's case could go all the way to SCOTUS, which means that unless Cohen had vigorously protested on his own that it was, indeed, a non-crime all the way to SCOTUS, himself, and then had them tell him that it was actually a crime, they can do the same damn thing they've done in many cases and just say, "Nah, dawg, that ain't a crime."

Cohen's plea has literally nothing to do with it, and no court has to decide anything about Cohen's legal situation.

Maybe I am not understanding. You say it has nothing to do with Cohen's case, but then say the appeals court has to decide whether Cohen committed a crime. That seems pretty related to Cohen's case!

The only thing related to Cohen's case that is relevant is that Cohen should not have been allowed to testify that he plead guilty, because it is blackletter law that co-defendant's convictions/pleas are inadmissible as evidence that the defendant currently on trial committed a crime, or even that the conduct was criminal. That alone, in a less controversial case, probably would be considered reversible error.

Nope. They have to decide whether the underlying facts, which are mostly uncontested, comprise a crime. Cohen's case is not involved in any part of that sentence/process. Like, where does it go in there? It doesn't.

But your theory of the case is that Trump conspired to his Cohen’s guilt. That wasn’t what the government argued and honestly itself is not shown by the facts.

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