FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace: where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; where there is sadness, joy. O divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love. For it is in giving that we receive, it is in pardoning that we are pardoned, and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen.
User ID: 195
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
Tom Brady lost at the Superbowl quite a few times, does that make him a loser?
Losing leads to winning when you use it as an opportunity to learn and grow.
Trump did that with his bankruptcies. He repositioned his businesses. He learned that Trump the brand was valuable, and leveraged that by going into simple businesses and using his name to increase the margin on them.
He didn't continue in a series of endless lawsuits against his creditors, claiming that the casinos were in fact entirely solvent and making tons of money.
I appreciate your point, but I continue to believe that Trump and Republicans as a whole would have done better to take the attitude typical of a team that loses a game on a bad call or an unlucky injury: we lost, but it doesn't reflect on us as a team, we're going to come back and win. Much as it pains me to give this example, the 49ers in 2022 lost to the Eagles in the NFCCG on terrible luck. Brock Purdy suffered a freak elbow injury on a sack in the first quarter, and their backup QB suffered a concussion a few plays later. Left with no quarterbacks, the 49ers were doomed. And the Niners maintained, to themselves and publicly, that while they lost the game they were the better team. And they came back in 2023 on a mission, demolished the Eagles in the regular season, and ran hot all the way to the Super Bowl. Which they lost to the Chiefs, but what are you gonna do?
If Republicans had collectively taken the attitude that the various rule changes had delivered a Biden presidency, but not a fully legitimate Biden presidency, and that in recognition of this Biden should limit his programs to change the country, and if he didn't then Republicans in Congress had a mandate to prevent him from doing so. That's a sophisticated, effective argument that would appeal to moderates. The alternative has lead to significant losses of winnable Senate and Gubernatorial races, that are likely to hobble the effectiveness of a second Trump term.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
Fair. I didn't think you considered voter ID a complete solution either, I just focused on it to dig into one point.
Fixing perceptions/actualities of vote counting unfairness in blue machine run cities is either a coup-complete problem or near enough that it makes no difference. It requires probably allowing/forcing city government to annex suburbs such that the political unit becomes significantly more ethnically and politically balanced, but idk if that is remotely politically or practically possible. Any procedural changes short of that will still leave too much room for unaccountable actors to exercise influence on the process. Certainly it is not achievable by anyone by November.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
You'd have to ask the Republican majorities in PA and GA that passed laws allowing for extensive mail in voting while also advocating voter ID laws.
It'll always be something.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
I suppose by 'minor crimes' you mean the necessity to steal food from the lower classes to survive, not the killing of unarmed helots as part of the krypteia (which would not be a crime at all, as far as Spartan society is concerned)?
Murdering a Helot was very much a minor crime in Spartan society. One couldn't simply go around murdering Helots on a whim, and when done as part of initiation it had to be done in secret for a reason.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
They believe there is no one as effective at that, by orders of magnitude, as Trump himself. So once Trump leaves the scene, his base will go back to having formless and directionless anger
The better argument, which I've made before at length, is that no other major political figure actually resembles Trump at a detailed level in their politics. Which is remarkable when you consider the degree of his takeover of the GOP and the eight years of dominance he's exercised over party politics. Every single potential heir to MAGA has clear major policy, procedural, and stylistic differences to Trump.
If Biden choked on an almond the Dems would get Kamala, if she laughed until she burst a blood vessel in her brain they would nominate Mayor Pete or Big Gretch or Gavin Newsom, and in that whole process virtually nothing would change policy wise. If Trump simply decided he wanted to golf more and spend time with Barron, policy in the GOP would fundamentally change under his successor.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
You just come down the escalator, and you fight, and you win, and it's easy. And then you win some more.
Except for, when, you know, you lose. And then you fight to argue that you didn't lose, and you lose that fight too.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
It's certainly possible that Trump is uniquely causal of this voter ID thing.
If the establishment wants people to trust the process they really need to shut up about subverting the process to defeat Trump, and they really need to stop opposing things like requiring id to vote.
You both cite Voter ID, along with many other commenters in this thread.
Voter ID has been a fight in American politics since I can remember, and I'm sure it was around before that. Georgia passed Voter ID in 2005. Did Trump accept the result of the election in Georgia?
Arizona has had voter ID from 2019. Did Trump accept the result in Arizona?
Wisconsin's Voter ID law took effect in 2011 (aside: I love the website name Wiscontext). Did Trump accept the result in Wisconsin?
Michigan requires photo ID. Did Trump accept the results in Michigan?
It's pretty obvious that "pass a voter ID law" isn't going to fix things. And we can play various forms of "true voter ID has never been tried" with things like National ID cards showing citizenship or an American version of the Hukou system to register where everyone lives, but there's no actual push to implement that, and those kinds of government registries that allow for more direct Federal control over people's lives have been considered a Bad Thing by Republicans at all levels for generations. Given the repeated failures to implement RealID, we're probably not going to see a successful implementation of National ID any time soon.
Voter ID : Election Integrity as Police Body Cams : Black Lives Matter. It's a reasonable sounding procedural change that will ultimately change nothing.
But even if we agree on Voter ID, normally the conversation moves on to mail in ballots. The venerable @Rov_Scam has done the Yeoman's work and extensively outlined how mail-in ballot changes were passed, in many cases by Republicans to benefit Republican constituencies like the rural elderly and the self-employed. The only state to implement mail-in balloting by executive action in 2020 to go for Biden was New Hampshire. Which...actually I don't know of any Trump efforts to overturn the result in New Hampshire. If it happened I don't think it got a lot of press? I'll note that personally, I do not vote by mail, and I dislike vote by mail systems in general, because I don't trust myself to successfully fill out paperwork and my handwriting is atrocious, it is worth taking a few hours off during the day to make sure my ballot is counted. I'm also pretty sure that the most powerful constituency in American politics is Nursing Home Aides, who even leaving aside actually filling out ballots for their charges, can simply decide to "lose" the mail in ballots for residents whose politics they know to be antithetical to their own. I'm surprised neither side has promised massive pay increases for them yet.
Then the argument shifts to more subtle/secret Democrat manipulation schemes, but as we saw above there's not much pattern to R control of state government or D control of state government in terms of accusations of voter fraud.
But to return to our list of states above, let's zoom in on two: Georgia and Arizona both had R Governors and R State Houses. There was, obviously, an R in the White House for four years before the election. Both states had voter ID laws implemented before the election. Both states went for Biden, and despite extensive efforts neither state's results were ultimately overturned. Given that outcome, why should we expect implementing Voter ID laws nationally to lead to Trump and friends accepting another election loss, should it occur?
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
Is there anything the government could feasibly do to nudge Republicans towards accepting the results of the election in the event that Trump loses?
Wait for Donald Trump to die.
Until then anything is pissing into the wind.
Trump has achieved a bizarre leverage over the Republican party, where even people who he has abused, insulted, and degraded still only offer milquetoast criticism against him. Trump controls enough of the Republican base that no Republican can go against him, and he isn't going to change his tune.
There's no negotiation here. Winning doesn't fix it. Losing doesn't fix it. Implementing supposed ballot security measures won't fix it.
Georgia was the epicenter of voter fraud theories. Georgia has voter ID laws. Georgia was run, in 2020, by a Republican Governor, and a Republican majority of 26 in the House. If a Republican administration, working with a Republican Governor, in a state long controlled by Republicans, can't root out the appearance of corruption using the techniques people are asking for to combat corruption, it's hopeless. Either the FEMA deep state is so powerful that it's unbeatable anyway, or nothing will ever convince people that Trump lost.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
You need to anchor your own self esteem to something that is, for you, concrete.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
I see this stated a lot with the implication that IQ no longer matters above the level of (myself / my smartest friend / the smartest person I can conceive).
But why wouldn't a person's expected accomplishments go up exponentially as IQ increases with no limit. We can certainly observe that pattern up into the top 1 or 0.1%. Why would there be a cutoff beyond that?
My favorite example for adapting IQ to achievement is comparing raw NFL combine type stats to performance in sports. Obviously strength, speed, endurance are valuable traits in athletes. And obviously if you take two equally skilled or unskilled competitors, the stronger/faster/tougher will have an advantage. But there's a point at which the correlation breaks down, just drafting the guy with the best deadlift will not produce the most athletic team.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
This is just the joke about the South Korean and Kenyan development economists. They meet at a conference, both work in government, and agree to visit each other in their home countries. The Kenyan comes to Korea, and he's amazed at how orderly and advanced the city, and his friend has a beautiful home, nice car, gorgeous wife. While they're smoking Cuban cigars after dinner he says to his host: wow you've really done well for yourself. His friend confesses; you know, just between you and me, for every $1,000 in government contracts, I stole $10. And they laugh and say, man, no one ever catches on.
The South Korean goes to visit his Kenyan friend. The airport is a mess, the road is rutted, the city is full of squalor. But then he gets to his friend's house and the place is a palace, a huge spread. And the South Korean says, Wow, you've done REALLY well for yourself. And the Kenyan says: well, you know, for every $1,000 in contracts, I stole $500.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
I'm surprised. Saleh coached the hell out of that team last year, and he's more of a defensive guy anyway.
Though I guess this goes back to my theory that once you're invested at QB it goes Coordinators -- Head Coach -- Cut bait at QB and either pray for a miracle or a rebuild.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
Consider also that the decline in mythic quality from Ike-Kennedy-LBJ-Nixon to Dubya-Obama-Trump-Biden may impact willingness to take a bullet for the guy.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
But I'm curious. What happened to those 5 girls after you broke up with them? Do you know if they actually abstained from further sex until marriage?
Man, I have a birthday and a wedding anniversary and then you ask me to reminisce? Buckle up boyo.
One I lost track of entirely. We honestly had nothing in common except her best friend was dating my best friend.
One, A, I never talked to much after high school, but a couple years later I heard A married some Russian guy during undergrad, which unkind rumors called a green card marriage, and then he more or less abandoned her while refusing to divorce her. I don't know how that ultimately ended up.
One, B, would have a great deal of drama senior year with my childhood friend Chris as he wanted to have sex with her and she didn't want to have sex. Then we graduated high school and B went off to a southern party school and had what I understood to be a lot of fun. Funny how what was so important and dramatic in high school was meaningless by second semester of undergrad.
C would start dating a friend of mine from track a week after rejecting me, they would be inseparably hot and heavy all of senior year, talked about forever. He had gotten into UMichigan, and C chose to go to Michigan State so they wouldn't be too long distance, despite having never been to Michigan. The week before we all left for college that summer, my parents told me to invite a bunch of my friends to dinner at the country club we belonged to. C and I had remained close, along with D who was a good friend of hers, and so I invited both of them, along with several of my Brown and Jew crew friends from AP classes. Dinner is nice, it's the fireworks from the summer church festival down the road and you can see them from the balcony, when suddenly C leaves the group to take a phone call. Then she comes back, upset, and grabs D, and they go off to talk. We all plan to go back to my parents' house and shoot pool after. D asks me where she can take C to be alone, they go back to a spare bedroom in the basement. Turns out, C's boyfriend, the one she was moving 12 hours away to Michigan to stay with, had dumped her via text. After that she's cycled through a pretty standard serial-monogamy process. POSTSCRIPT: Years later, Mrs. FiveHour, who I met in undergrad, would go to law school, and in one of her 1L classes a guy would walk up to her afterward and say Hey, your last name is FiveHour, do you know FiveHourMarathon? And she'd say yeah he's my husband, and the guy would FREAK out holy shit FiveHourMarathon got married I knew him in high school. And she comes back and asks if I knew him, and I said yeah that's C's old boyfriend, I've told you that story before, you know the one who dumped her via text 72 hours before they were going to move to Michigan together? And Mrs. FiveHour looks at me with horror and says, C was so upset over HIM? All that drama over THAT GUY? Mrs. FiveHour was not impressed. C laughed until she choked when I told her this story after we ran into each other at the diner back home.
Of course, when C was crying over her erstwhile boyf, D was alternating between comforting her and stealing kisses with me. We'd been very close friends, and at some point it had turned into a doomed summer fling. She had decided that her wayward days were over, my wayward days had just begun, and we both kinda knew we weren't going to do long distance: I was headed to NYC for undergrad and she was off to Liberty to be a good Christian girl. But still, we talked about it, we flirted about it, we thought about it, even though ultimately we weren't going to do it; we had a lot of affection for each other, and I'd still rank her in marriageability top 5 of any girl I've ever known. She would meet a nice boy at Liberty, and still lives out there with her husband and kids. So I guess her repentance was as sincere as could be. I still can't over that her husband's last name is Dork. Not kidding, scout's honor, hand on the bible: his surname is Dork, D's name is now Mrs. Dork.
I'd imagine all four of them thought of it as sincere. A and D certainly put forth a best effort, to varying degrees of success. C, after her own heart, tried her best: I've remained friends with her and never once has she not been sincerely disgusted by the men who break her heart afterward and swears never again. B I guess didn't do that well, but that's more a change of circumstances and social contexts than anything.
My own negative reaction was a mix of jealousy, pride and a sense of entitlement to a life I'd consumed in media rather than in reality. Given, it worked out well enough for me in the end: all were nice enough girls, but Mrs. FiveHour is the Mrs. for a reason.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
Sure, but my analysis was entirely off base. I didn't understand that it was ultimately somewhere between a statement that she just wasn't that into me, and a shit-test in the classical sense. I took the statement seriously as "I no longer want to do the thing I previously wanted to do."
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
I think the rise of streaming certainly hurt movies, but I submit that it’s the poor quality of the films themselves that are killing the industry off completely.
It's a process, though I haven't seen a single comic book movie since the Toby Maguire Spiderman and the last Star Wars content I consumed was The Force Awakens so I'm hopelessly behind on the question of what exactly is so bad about modern Hollywood, I've checked out.
The decline of the industry begins with the technology. No one can reasonably argue that if only we got "the viewpoint of a mere middle class man, let alone a poor one, [or] anything authentic to a religious person" that the film industry would be doing a-ok.
The shitty things we all hate about the movie industry in this thread are mostly a response to the decline of the American box office. They're hemorrhaging ticket sales, in a model built on ticket sales that still considered home-viewing an afterthought. They still haven't yet totally figured out how to make home-viewing profitable without the box office ticket sales. They settled on the big franchises and comic book movies because they thought they would still bring people out to the theaters. For the most part, the non-franchise films do even worse in theaters! Because the technology only supports the spectacle comic book films: the gap between theater and home has narrowed to the point where there's almost zero value in seeing a comedy or romance in theaters, only the big spectacle benefits from the big screen.
The preening morality plays are a natural result of a culture of retreat and failure in the industry: "I'm producing this film in a way that I can explain in job interviews next fall". They know that the industry is sinking and a lot of the films they make will be, by any reasonable metric, failures; so they become more insular, more focused on getting one of the limited number of seats before the music stops. If you fail progressively, you have a narrative to latch onto as to why it wasn't your fault. If you fail boldly, trying something new, it's just on you.
How do you fix the streaming-old-movies-on-a-75-inch-TV problem for the film industry? The answer isn't going to be thoughtful Christian values films, if the people to make those even existed. But without a good answer, the film industry isn't going to suddenly change. That's what will alter the calculus.
My point is that a lot of what we're arguing about in the movie industry is this play. It's a terrible play that went horribly wrong immediately, but the odds of winning the game were already effectively zero, so criticizing the play design is kind of pointless.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
Hollywood is of course a deeply and ironically uncreative industry (but then so are comic books, and book publishers, and gaming). When they see a cash cow, they will try to milk it until it's dead and they are trying to squeeze milk out of leather.
I agree with your post, but I want to add:
Hollywood is a deeply uncreative industry in decline. Inflation adjusted, domestic US box office peaked in 2002. They're selling about as many tickets today as in 1995, despite an additional 70 million Americans. Some more stats: 61% of Americans saw zero movies in theaters, the average American who did see a movie saw just three and change, down from 30% of Americans seeing zero movies and an average close to seven in 2007.
2007 is seventeen years ago. That's, you know, a while, but Todd Phillips was already a working director then. Bob Iger was already CEO of Disney in 2007. A lot of these guys came up in a totally different industry than the one they're working in now. It's rare for dominant industries to disappear gracefully.
This decline has little to do with the movies being made, and more to do with changes to the media environment. The rise of streaming, the rise of the $500 70" TV has made going to the theater a less interesting thing to do.
There's a great scene from Mad Men where Don Draper, thinking about the rise of rock music and how kids are tying bands into their identities, asks "When did music become so important?" In the 60s, music suddenly mattered as part of identity formation and politics in a way it hadn't been for Don growing up. Now, I'm not sure Music does matter, music mattering may have been a brief period.
Movies have mattered from just after their invention to now. I'm not sure they really do anymore. And the industry is coming to terms with it.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
I am sure she does similar things for me, although I'm not brave/foolish enough to ask what exactly my annoying habits are.
I feel intense guilt when my wife visits her parents. I tore her away from their traditions. I'm a 5am person, her parents don't wake up until around ten. Over years of sleeping together, my wife now wakes up between six and seven. My wife can barely get along with her family on a visit anymore, she's up at 730 after sleeping in and she's tearing her hair out by the time they're up.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
I'm reading Il Gigante, a book about Michaelangelo and the David. It's pretty mid, not bad but not really telling me anything I didn't know.
I just started Moby Dick on audiobook. We do all still think of going to sea, don't we?
How do Faiths and Philosophies Deal with the Convert who is a Satiated Sinner?
We all know Augustine’s famous formulation: Lord, make me pure, but not yet. How should we deal with someone who applies this strategy successfully: they sin for as long as anyone would reasonably like to sin, then with perfect timing they find religion, live an ordered an righteous life, and tell anyone who will listen that their prior life was bad and sinful. And on the one hand, I might agree that they are correct: their prior life was sinful, their current life is better ordered; but on the other hand there’s something annoying about someone “having their fun” and then turning around and telling you not to have yours, or claiming their objectively enviable life as some form of tragedy they were forced to endure rather than a result of their own choices.
The classic, Augustinian example is the born again Christian who sleeps around when they are young and then finds Jesus right around the time that most people get bored of sleeping around anyway. Inasmuch as one can point to anything like a secular liberal life-path it looks something like HIMYM : date and sleep around and party from college through your mid-late 20s, at which point you’ll be ready to settle down and switch your tax light to available. As the joke goes: how do you find your soulmate? Turn 27, it’ll be the next person you date. Most people, even without finding any religion, tend to get tired of sleeping around, and get married. But the difference is that the born-again Christian goes through this process, attributes their change to finding religion, and lectures everyone in range about how they should never do the things they did. And it’s hard to take them seriously and not say: You had your fun and now you want to keep me from having mine.
The feminist example was one brought up by my wife: women who earn celebrity exploiting themselves in ways that they later write oh-so-thoughtful-thinkpieces with all the right feminist verbiage self-victimizing and finding all the ways that the thing they made money off of was horrible; conveniently right around the time when they can’t exploit their ill-gotten hotness anymore. Emily rat-polish-nonsense is trying for a second career as a feminist crusader, starting with getting angry about the modeling career that helped her net a rich man that would enable her to pay to play in publishing. But my wife brought up Callista Flockhart, who has tried to do advocacy around the eating disorder she had throughout her early 2000s acting career, without really reckoning with the damage that starving herself did to girls watching to benefit herself; Bella Hadid who says she regrets her nose job because it took away her Palestinian nose, while living off the results of the plastic surgery she’s gotten; and [the Kadashians]](https://people.com/kylie-jenner-regrets-getting-breasts-done-7565553) of all people try to self victimize about the “pressure” they felt to get Darth-Vader quantities of plastic surgery, pressure they themselves have done more than anyone else to create. And my wife’s feeling is that these women want to have their cake and eat it too: hit “betray” on feminism when their young and exploitation pays, then find Feminism when their career is starting to flag and cry a river of tears about how they were mistreated when they were making money.
The problem in either case being that while Augustine’s plea is deeply human, and fairly normal, the message such a convenient conversion sends is undermined, it’s at cross purposes, it will come across as “do as I say not as I do” to the young, who will take the whole story as permission to sin with an assurance of later acceptance after conversion.
Possible solutions:
There is no problem, they’re probably mostly sincere, you’re just jealous. This might be accurate, I have a teacher’s-pet personality and an autistic focus on fairness in some things. The first time I remember thinking this was as a virginal high school junior-senior, when I went through a weird phase of dating like five girls in a row who all gave a variation on the same story: she wasn’t a virgin, she had lost it to a boyfriend she thought was forever some time last year, but she didn’t want to do it again until she got married, and she was willing to give me a try out for that job. And as an immature seventeen year old boy, I would have probably happily dated a fellow virgin who wanted to wait until marriage, but working toward marrying a girl who had sex with other guys before but made me wait was out of the question. Looking back, I was immature, my analysis of the situation was incorrect, and my jealousy was asinine. Maybe I’m just emotionally wrong about this.
They might not really be sincere, but this is the best case scenario path for them. We want to encourage conversion to our religion, and that means accepting converts where they are. The Prodigal son and all that. Though I find this mostly dissatisfying, in that the Prodigal Son comes home after eating pig slop, rather than having a great time and just sorta coming home one day. His conversion from rock bottom is sincere, it doesn’t tell us what to do with insincere converts.
This is the actual path for converts, growing up. Not everyone is a saint from day one, and really a life path where you have your fun and then mature is the ordered life path we’re aiming for. We don’t actually expect to convert young people, they’re too busy having fun, we just want them to wander back when they’re old. This I find dissatisfying, in that nobody actually preaches this, and accepting it from converts undermines the message to the young by observed example.
Is there something I’m just not seeing here?
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
Last time we took a mall trip, my wife loves shopping but she's also a bizarre raccoon who will spend all day walking through stores, not buy anything, then go home and try to find the things she looked at second hand across the internet. Typically, I do the same thing you do and read a book as I follow her around. I don't mind following her around, reading, carrying bags, paying for things. But I absolutely drew the line when she asked me to take notes on sizes and styles. That was too far for me.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
What adaptations have you made for your spouse?
For example, my wife and I went to the family place at the beach this weekend. My wife hates traveling, factually. She always wants to go home early, even on a short trip. She's a homebody.
I also can't sleep in. So, even though per the username running isn't my thing, when we go to the shore, I wake up at 5am and I run/walk at least fifteen miles. I put in a podcast or an audiobook, I head out before sunrise, I enjoy the quiet and the breeze and the waves, I finish up and hop in the water, and by then she's awake and we go get coffee and...go for a walk, because that's what we do. I get in a whole event before she wakes up. That way if she wants to leave early afternoon instead of hanging out and leaving at night, I feel like I still got in a full day of "shore."
What have you done to work around your spouse's foibles?
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
I love upsets. To the point that I sometimes have trouble rooting for the USA in the Olympics.
FiveHourMarathon
Listen to Pierre
1mo ago
Frat brothers can't date other frat brothers. It throws off the whole system. Your argument assumes one homosexual, but 1) it's even weirder to have a one-homo-at-a-time policy than a no-homos policy, 2) brothers, like Jared, could present as straight on arrival so you don't know if you get one open one who else might wander out of the closet.
I do assume that Jared was the gay chicken champion of his entering class. Absolute tank!
This was mostly a joke about how easy it is for a white man to marry a Chinese or Nigerian foreign exchange student at any selective American college. Most likely outcome if I hadn't met my wife first, tbqh.
My most recent possible common ancestor with a Chinese girl would be before the Magyars left the steppe, and my most recent possible common ancestor with a Nigerian girl might be the Great Rift Valley.
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