Amadan
I will be here longer than you
No bio...
User ID: 297
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
1d ago
Make your point without the snide personal digs.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
1d ago
I imagine that, like me, you don't pick unnecessary fights. For non-confrontational grillers like us, it's pretty easy to just let all the Pride stuff brush past us. Do I really care about rainbow flags everywhere and trans activists in the workplace sending out multiple emails every month about the importance of PRIDE!!!! and allyship and diversity? No, it doesn't affect me.
But... it's annoying. I notice.
More importantly, I know what the cost would be if, just once, I said something like "Why do we need yet another Pride event? Nobody is harassing you here, of all places. (And why do we need entire full-time positions just to support and affirm you?)"
I don't say things like that, because why pick an unnecessary fight? Yeah, mostly I can just ignore them. I don't have to go on their stupid Pride walks or attend their stupid Pride events or wear their stupid Pride pins or put their stupid Pride posters up at my desk.
But if I did say something like that, I'd be the office Nazi. I'd need to be educated.
Never mind that I am not "anti" LGBTQ. I want them to live their lives free of harassment. If someone was suggesting they be criminalized, or not allowed to work here, or forbidden to be public about who they are, I'd be strongly against that.
But that's not enough for them. You say no one is harassing or abusing me, and this is true, but only because I know how to keep my mouth shut and it's not important enough for me to fight over it.
If you're unfortunate enough to be someone who can't keep their mouth shut - like say, a James Damore - these are the people who will go after your job.
I will say that of the few trans people I know, personally and professionally, mostly they are pretty normal. But without exception, I have seen them go off a time or two at a relatively minor "microaggression." They definitely remind you that they are a walking social hazard zone.
When I say I resent having to keep my mouth shut, I don't mean that I really want to call someone a tranny or say "You know you're a man, right?" I'm not that big a jerk (though some of the biggest jerks among them make me want to be). I mean I resent that anything other than a nod or just benign silence when they are going off means you are now engaged in the firefight. I mean I resent that I can't say "Why yet another Pride event?" I mean I resent knowing that they expect us all to pretend and affirm and validate.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
2d ago
What I see is that both of you are doing what is very common in Internet debates, which is, being very confident that you're right and the other person is wrong, adopting a rather condescending tone in explaining how wrong and ignorant the other person is. I do think @Throwaway05 is being a tad condescending, but we don't generally mod for being "a tad condescending." You, however, were getting increasingly heated, especially in your last post.
I very frequently find myself writing a post layered with sarcasm and condescension directed towards someone I think is being an ass. I usually (usually) rewrite it and manage to take a more neutral tone.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
2d ago
You are being increasingly antagonistic throughout this thread. If you find someone is aggravating you, take a breath and maybe take a break from the conversation instead of seeing how cleverly you can imply they are stupid and dishonest without breaking the rules.
I agree with you in principal. As a straight man, I have the same inherent revulsion you do to the thought of men having sex, but as a non-religious person, I don't think it's wrong or immoral, just something that turns me off, and lots of people have sexual practices that turn me off. If you don't make me watch/participate, it's not my business.
And I try to have the same empathy for trans people. Yes, I have a strong disgust reaction to trans women. I think they mostly look hideous and freakish, but I also think it would be wrong to judge people because they are aesthetically unappealing to me. Part of the reason I think the "They don't pass" argument from TERFs and other anti-trans people is a losing one; how "pretty" and "feminine" trans women are really isn't the point. There are actual women who are ugly and gross-looking to me, but I wouldn't be so cruel as to degrade them and call them "not women" because of their unfortunate appearance.
The problem with trans women (and to a lesser extent, a lot of LGTBQ people nowadays) is that it's not enough for them to be allowed to live their lives in peace while we politely refrain from commenting on their appearance. Many of them literally want to "shove it in our faces." See all the dissatisfaction about Pride events, which LGTBQ folks mistakenly claim is a homophobic backlash. In some cases it is - there are people who genuinely hate gays and all forms of gender non-conforming people. But I think are a lot like me; I am fine with you living your life and being happy about it, but why do I have to celebrate your sexual preferences and fetishes? Why are you looking around the room to see who stops clapping first?
I can have a lot more empathy for someone who is struggling but just wants to live their life and not be harassed and abused than I do for someone who decides that harassing and abusing other people for being insufficiently affirming is appropriate.
It's activists who have degraded our charity and tolerance. As I said in another comment, 20 years ago there were people who thought transsexuals were deviants and perverts, but they really were mostly left alone. Use the bathroom you prefer? Okay, whatever. Call yourself a woman/man, or even use weird pronouns? Okay, whatever. Some people will roll their eyes at you, but most people didn't want to make a big deal about it. Now, however, it is a big deal, always, and that makes it hard to be empathic to people who clearly are not empathetic to anyone else's reaction.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
2d ago
Since you're being pretty up front about it and accepting the inevitable consequences, I'm only going to ban you for one day, but yes, this is absolutely not the kind of post we want.
Every one of us (including me) has a list of "people I can't fucking stand and wish would fuck off forever." If even blocking them is not enough for you and their very existence causes you to post things like this, that is a you problem. Deal with it in some manner other than this.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
2d ago
Really? Before the trans debate, do you think men could just occasionally walk into the women's bathroom and pee in peace while only being freaked out at by rare Karens?
Men who were making a genuine effort to dress and pass as women (even if they didn't really pass)? Yes.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
2d ago
Out of curiosity, have you actually read any books about the history of Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Do you think you could accurately summarize both the Israeli and the Palestinian positions in words that they themselves would agree with? Of course there is no single "Israeli" or "Palestinian" position, which is part of my point below, but even narrowing it down to the militant partisans on either side?
Yes, I said that my view was based on those things, not that I was just directly quoting them, and I don't think any individual element of that description is inapplicable. Even pro-Israeli partisans admit they've killed tens of thousands of Palestinians, including women and children - “There are no schools in Gaza, as there are no children left.” was proudly chanted by them in public.
Who is them? The footballers in Amsterdam?
It's undeniable that tens of thousands of Palestinians have been killed. There is no war, especially one happening in an urban environment, where lots of casualties weren't women and children. This doesn't make their war just, but it does make it unexceptional. Nor are the Israelis exceptional in having some drunken footballers chanting terrible things and soldiers in the field sometimes getting up to stupid and offensive grunt shit to amuse themselves.
I've based my views on quotes straight from the mouths of Likud officials, not Hamas. As I said, I'm not condemning the Israelis as evil (I don't think calling a state evil really has much meaning) - I'm just taking them at their word.
That would require you to describe them as they would describe themselves. Do you think they would describe themselves as "a blood-drenched, bronze-age state intent on ethnic purity and conquest via force of arms to reclaim the territory their god said was theirs"? Again, you aren't using the word "evil" but you're clearly saying, in not so many words, that they're evil monsters and there is no other way to explain them.
Also, Likud is one political party in Israel whose popularity waxes and wanes. They do not speak for the Israeli state and the entirety of the Israeli citizenry. This would be like taking some of the Republicans' most extreme statements and saying they speak for Americans. (Which of course is exactly what they and their enemies would both like to claim, but it doesn't make it true.) Much has been made of Netanyahu's "Amelek" comment. Netanyahu is a sort of Trump-like figure in Israel - he has a lot of supporters, especially after 10/7, but a substantial portion of the Israeli's population hates him. Think of all the outrageous things Trump has said, which a sizeable portion of the American population would not agree with, and then claiming that Trump was clearly speaking for the American people, and reflecting what Americans think. In an abstract sense, this may be true (they elected him, after all), but at the same time, you'd be completely wrong in claiming he's channelling the American psyche and voicing what the average American thinks about everything. Netanyahu, and other militant Likud officials, are pretty open about despising Palestinians, and there's a sizeable portion of Israel that would just like the Palestinians to go away (who can blame them, after all this time?). But most Israelis do not want to exterminate Palestinians because God said to, and you know this and you know it's not an accurate characterization, you're just using that description because it makes Israel sound really super-evil.
I'm just taking them at their word. I think that they're motivated by ethnonationalist impulses
"Motivated by ethnonationalist impulses" is rather different from "literally wants to commit genocide because God told us to," which is what you are claiming.
We have a number of white ethnonationalists here, and while sometimes they will admit that they would be okay with a violent solution to create the ethnostate they want, none of them would accept as uncharitable a description of their motives as the one you are claiming is the Israeli one.
Whether or not you believe ethnostates are bad, people (including Israelis) want them for reasons beyond "We hate other people and want to purify the Earth."
That's precisely what I'm doing
No, you are assuredly and absolutely not. Again, can I ask what books you have read?
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
2d ago
I'm basing my view of the Israeli side on direct quotes from high-ranking government officials and widely respected international legal bodies.
I'm pretty sure the UN and the ICC did not say "the Israeli side is a blood-drenched, bronze-age state intent on ethnic purity and conquest via force of arms to reclaim the territory their god said was theirs." Though it is probably what a lot of people in those organizations think, given the hostility they have traditionally shown towards Israel.
As I have said before, I don't particularly have affection for Israel, but to say the Israelis are the bloodthirsty medieval ones, living next to who they do, seems disingenuous.
Just to clarify, I didn't say they were evil.
Well, you might not have used the word "evil," but you all but called them worshippers of Khorne, so come on.
but you can't even begin to talk reasonably about the topic without being honest and admitting that Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza (as their government has repeatedly admitted, and as the UN has repeatedly accused them of).
While this is debatable (kind of like "genocide" - if you are going to invoke the UN and international bodies, then the precise and legalistic definition of words matters), sure, I will provisionally agree that that's what they are doing. And even say that I think what they are doing right now is pretty bad.
My point here is not that I think Israelis are the good guys and how dare you criticize them, but that the history there is a lot more complicated than your simplistic, straight-from-the-mouths-of-Hamas version of Israeli history. I find conversations more productive when people are actually able to steelman their opponents as rational human beings acting out of motives other than pure malice or blind fanaticism, and if that's all you can imagine as what motivates your enemies, then either your enemies really are monsters, or you are probably failing to understand them (or you are doing so deliberately because you hate them and it is more pleasurable to believe they are monsters).
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
3d ago
If the trans community were smart, they'd stop complaining about these bills and shrug them off.
Agreed, but that's kind of the problem here - the trans community has not been smart, and instead doubles down defending bad actors (or denying they exist).
Had trans women limited themselves to peeing in peace, you might have had an occasional Karen freaking out seeing someone who looks like a man in the women's restroom, but most people wouldn't have cared. My recollection is that this wasn't an issue for many years. Trans women have been around since long before the current iteration of the culture wars. Why do you suppose suddenly they are a major front in the culture war? I don't think it's because conservatives suddenly discovered they exist.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
3d ago
I like these conversations a lot more when the Israeli side is willing to admit that they're a blood-drenched, bronze-age state intent on ethnic purity and conquest via force of arms to reclaim the territory their god said was theirs - when you're willing to admit that there are actual conversations that can be had.
I too like conversations a lot more when my opponents are willing to accept my most uncharitable and cartoonish representation of their point of view as accurate. It's so bizarre you would suggest the Israeli side should just admit that they are evil and monstrous and start the conversation from there that I am genuinely not sure whether I missed the subtle irony you're conveying.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
4d ago
is precisely why what you are doing ought to be criminalized.
Well. You are allowed to argue that political views you don't like should be criminalized, but we are going to insist you keep it in the realm of civil discourse, which means not going after the posters you don't like personally.
Unfortunately you are not as clever as @SecureSignals, who usually manages to keep his Jew-hating impersonal. I would probably have let all the "you you you" "racist treason genocidal hypocrisy" statements pass, except you just piled them up and up and ended with this:
The idea of destroying other nations except the Jewish one is an insane megalomaniac ideology that ironically shares plenty with pop culture idea of Nazism. Albeit you are a bit more sneaky about it.
This is not the first time you've been told not to get personal and to avoid slinging insults and insinuations at other posters that they are part of some nefarious Joo-spiracy because they are pro-Israel or pro-Jewish. Last time you got a short ban, because it had been a while, but since then you've accumulated several more warnings for doing the same thing, so you do not seem to be learning. This thread is full of reports on your wall-of-text diatribes, and while the wall-of-text diatribes are (mostly) within the rules, if generally just kind of shitty and inflammatory, attacking other posters directly is not.
Banned for a week.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
4d ago
Too antagonistic. Don't get personal.
Your conduct in other threads right now is, while not quite as bad, not good.
You've been warned about this before. A lot. Ever since your first ban, where you claimed you were taking your ball and going home because this place sucks so much, and yet you keep coming back.
You've collected an impressive eight warnings since then, but no bans. And contrary to what some people think, I don't look forward to banning people (it's clearly a failure to steer people towards better participation, but some people are unwilling to change). I can only conclude you've interpreted our forbearance as tolerance and weakness.
One week ban.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
4d ago
This post is neither rage-posting nor outgroup-bashing, but you're giving it a mod warning for not "providing more than a Twitter link."
That's because we have a rule against bare links. We've had this discussion many times and you are unlikely to add anything new to it.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
4d ago
We're not worried about running out of space. We're worried about the place becoming nothing but daily rage-posting and low effort outgroup-bashing. If all we wanted to do was increase the volume and frequency of posts, we'd remove all rules and just let people post whatever they want. That would probably make this place a lot livelier, but not better.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
6d ago
I've mentioned this before, but I follow a few Replika subs and FB groups. These things are already being used for therapy. And while some people seem happy with their chatbot companions, a day doesn't go by when someone doesn't post, seriously distraught, that their AI girlfriend or boyfriend "cheated" on them, or didn't remember some important detail of their life, or behaved hurtfully. Some people really, genuinely think they are sentient and feeling, and some people are going to be really fucked up by relying on a chatbot for advice and human companionship.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
7d ago
You're going to need to provide more than just a Twitter link to post a new thread.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
7d ago
I cannot disagree with you.
That said, kinda low effort booing. You know we frown on posts that are just dunking on your outgroup like this.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
7d ago
(Meta: is it obnoxious to do multi-top-posts like this? I didn’t want to talk about these ideas right away because I felt it would bias the replies, but at the same time it seems like a waste to write this as a second level reply in an old thread just before the new CW thread opens up).
Within reason it's okay. We only get annoyed if someone keeps starting multiple threads about the same topic.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
7d ago
No. As I said, "contempt" is also appropriate, but hate is an accurate word. If someone is being histrionic here, it's not me.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
8d ago
Well, I just disagree with you. I am not talking about utilitarian calculations about the value of a Michelangelo vs. the value of some random person, I'm talking about the equivalence you keep insisting on making between women and toilet paper, which you're doing just to be provocative. If that is your mindset, that you literally regard them to be in the same category (disposable commodities that are of value depending on abundance and your need), you can argue all you like that you don't "hate" women, but I don't think women would be wrong to see it otherwise.
Amadan
I will be here longer than you
8d ago
You're just belaboring the equivalence. Obviously, if women are just commodities to put your dick in and produce babies (and I'm well aware there are people here who unironically believe this, though in your case it's hard to be sure whether you're serious or trolling) then yeschad. However, I would suggest it does not serve your purpose to act out the caricature of the dude who spawned the smarmy feminist "Women are human" meme.
I'm not asking you to summarize what all Israelis think. That would obviously be ridiculous. I'm asking you to summarize what the hard-liners who believe in a Jewish ethnostate believe, in terms they would agree with.
That isn't what I meant by "stupid grunt shit," and I think you are being disingenuous in claiming that you think that's what I meant. I was thinking more of the videos of them making offensive jokes and raiding Palestinian women's underwear drawers.
I know that the Palestinians (and our resident Jew-haters) claim that Israelis are sniping Palestinian children for fun, but there's been no substantial evidence of this, and to believe that it's happening at scale requires, again, believing that Israelis are so psychologically different from most people, and so bloodthirsty, that "monsters" would be an appropriate description.
I have definitely heard racist and bloodthirsy shit from Russians about Ukrainians, from Arabs about Jews, from Americans about Iraqis, and that's just in recent memory - surely we don't need to take a trip down memory lane to Viet Nam or Korea or WWII. I am not defending what the Maccabi fans said, it's obviously vile, but I am disputing your argument that this shows some uniquely evil and genodical spirit among Israelis. Drunken footballers have always done awful and offensive things, and drunken footballers from a country currently at war? I think the press coverage has been wildly uncritical (presenting it as an "attempted pogrom of Jews of Amsterdam"), but I think you are just using it as another story about how evil Israelis are.
Using the "Aparthead state" rhetoric kind of gives the game away, but as far as the first statement, yes, Zionists believe they are entitled to Israel because it is their ancestral homeland. And you know what? I agree that that's bullshit. You don't have a natural rightful claim to land that your ancestors happened to live on 2000 years ago, or the entire world would be subject to pretty dramatic redrawing of borders. At the same time, it's a lot more complicated than your simple anti-Zionist narrative of "Jews showed up to commit genocide because God told them to take back their land." I mean, have you read any other books? I haven't read Righteous Victims but I've read some of the other stuff by Benny Morris and the New Historians, and even they don't tell it that way.
I mean, no, I don't really blame Palestinian youths for hating Israelis. I'm sure I would too if I grew up as they did. That does not make their position objectively right. If you think that terrorism and unending warfare is a "political consequence of their continued existence," though, then you apparently share the most pessimistic Israeli view of Palestinians. I don't blame people constantly subjected to violence for hating the people responsible and wishing they'd just go away (and this goes for both sides). We can hope some leaders will rise above this, but we can also recognize that the motives are very understandable.
Some of them might say that, and I might even believe a couple of them. On the other hand, we're back to how you characterize "the lengths Israel has gone to." You evidently believe the genocidal apartheid state version where Israelis (a critical mass of them, anyway) are just that evil and hate Palestinians and have not exterminated them only because it would be bad PR. The Israeli version would be quite different from that, and a lot closer to what the white nationalists would call reasonable measures to separate and suppress a violent population that is making war on them. (No, I would not agree with that characterization, any more than I agree with the more ungenerous Israeli characterizations of the Palestinians, but it's at least more coherent than "They're just evil genocidal religious fanatics.")
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