Throwaway05
9hr ago
The process is somewhat individual and adversarial. In NJ the way it works is more or less this - somebody has to be concerned about the patient (usually a family member, a concerned bystander, cops walking by) the patient is then taking an ED or Crisis Center on a temporary hold, at which point a social worker has to see them and think they need to be committed at which point they are seen by two physicians who have to feel it is appropriate. Individuals involved can be sued, fined, lose their license for abuse and so on. Then afterwards there is an expungement process. If the patient is held for an extended period of time without discharge then they have a formal court hearing that can and will result in release from the psychiatric hospital.
Obviously there is some abuse and laziness in the process, most typically the second physician would be like "eh I wasn't there, I'll assume the first doc was correct."
Ultimately this involves multiple trained professionals with skin in the game to make the determination that someone needs to be committed and they can always go through a court process afterwards.
I think some of the value here is that most people who end up committed don't have the functional status to do much of anything. If you make it opt-in most wouldn't, and wouldn't be able to get expunged. I'm fine with a more robust way of people getting their rights back but it has to be done in away that isn't too egregiously expensive and defaults to no because of how dangerous a small subsection of these people are, which is hard to convey if you've never seen them.
Crisis centers do occasionally catch people who will explicitly say that they are interested in killing people (in a sociopathic way) and loading them down with rights restrictions before they get started in an unalloyed good.
Hope all of that makes sense, typed fast.
Some other stuff: -While most doctors aren't anti-gun they aren't committing people purely to get them away from their guns unless the doc has concerns for threat and its therefore appropriate. This is because these settings are overworked, their aren't enough beds for those who really need them, and the hospital doesn't get paid if the insurance company doesn't think the patient actually needs to be committed and that rolls onto the doctor's head. In the worse case scenario no psychiatric hospital will take the committed patient because they clearly don't need psychiatric care and then the ED comes over and stabs the psychiatrists 80 million times for taking up a bed while someone is bleeding to death in chairs.
-Average disorganized street homeless person is harmless other than the inability to care for themselves even if they are vaguely threatening, so they tend not to get taken in unless they are actively harassing someone or committing some other crime like trespassing.
Throwaway05
10hr ago
It actually doesn't, as in the case I know where someone took a prescribed drug which caused psychotic symptoms. But even if that were so, a lot of things do. Showing some level of poor judgement and insight and lack of responsibility is not per se grounds for revoking a fundamental right.
I don't think we are going to get on the same page about this, but as a fact matter - if your friend was psychotic under the influence of a substance at that time he had poor judgement and insight, if they were committed involuntary (the correct response to oh holy shit the walls are talking to me is to you know, get help).
One of the challenges of managing society in general is what to do with people who are "fine" most of the time but dangerous while in a certain state (like decompensated mental illness, tripping balls, or just pissed off).
Throwaway05
1d ago
Would you feel more comfortable with this process if we were able to produce date that illustrates that patients admitted with homicidal ideation are equally or more likely to kill someone as felons?
Fundamentally we need to establish what level of problematic behavior disqualifies from gun use. Some amount is clearly appropriate there are people dumb or crazy enough to say "if you let me have a gun I'm going to kill X." Clearly they shouldn't be allowed to. Felons? Stickier not every felon is likely to kill someone but it's a good broad category. You could attack this laterally by making assault on healthcare workers a felony and charging it 100% of the time, but that would be even more overkill - it happens a lot and we try and let it go because a good number of people who do this aren't likely to cause trouble or are likely to cause a minimum of trouble.
While my co-workers (of most non-surgical specialties) are certainly politically motivated at times, and are unlikely to write a letter in support of someone owning guns because they don't believe in that for political reasons....and at the same time they aren't going to abuse the commitment process for political reasons. I could say its because of historical abuses leading to lots of ethic changes on this, I could say its because of the increased lawsuit risk, but realistically a large chunk of it is just because it's so infrequently anything other than intensely obvious (at least outside suicide, suicide risk gets a bit stickier).
Patients who are sick tend to be really fucking sick and unless you've seen it it's hard to understand. Your usual crazy schizophrenic homeless person wandering around on the street was deemed safe to go home. How bad do you think the ones who get dragged in are?
Throwaway05
1d ago
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Our judicial system is predicated on people not actually going to trial these days. Are you willing to accept the increased cost in taxes to do this, or more likely - a coercive structure that would necessitate a "plea deal equivalent." If so how much financial drain on society is acceptable to you?
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What is special about jury trials over other processes? If someone does a bench trial is that acceptable? If a judge rubber stamps a psychiatrists recommendation (the likely outcome of a push for a trial process) is that acceptable? How do you want this to actually happen? This is not a simple logistical thing you are suggesting.
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Being involuntarily committed requires some level of poor judgement and insight and lack of responsibility. Sometimes it is obviously disqualifying "I'm going to kill my neighbor doc" sometimes it is debatably disqualifying "I'm going to kill myself doc" (as feelings on suicide are complicated, even if our society has staked a view on this topic) sometimes it is something more like "I need you to calm down so I can help discharge you" "fuck you bitch cunt go fuck yourself" (in the setting of clear threat to self or others). A pro-2A MAXIMALIST might have no problem with someone who is overtly dangerous, foul tempered, and irresponsible owning a gun. Fine.
BUT.
You need a plan for individuals who are extremely likely to commit violence. Some patients are likely (where likely could means something like 30-70, not a baseline 2% risk of committing a murder) to commit violence. An example is ongoing escalatory stalking and harassment behavior. Seizing their guns and/or preventing them from buying guns gives the victim options while other social processes (like moving away, a restraining order and violations of the same leading to jail time) come into play.
What do you want to do to prevent Nybbler killing man from killing you. He gets discharged by the judge from the Psych hospital because he hasn't attacked anyone in the hospital. The Psychiatrist has a duty to warn by law to tell you hey I think this guy is at high risk of killing you. Guy goes home, everyone knows he is going to go kill you, how do you stop him? If you call the police they'll say "has he done anything yet?" or maybe "file a restraining order." That's shitty.
This is not theoretical. I've seen patient situations similar to this where the whole hospital goes "shit that guy is going to kill someone" but we can't do anything about it. Then we read about it on the news or treat the victim.
That's with the current state. It gets worse with guns involved.
This is a common sense restriction.
I suspect your issue is of the cathedral and woke politics - you don't trust Psychiatrists to appropriately judge if someone is really in need of an involuntary commitment. I'm sure they get it wrong sometimes just like felony convictions, but:
Can you produce any evidence that people getting guns being taken away from them because of involuntary commitment inappropriately is occurring with any degree of frequency?
Throwaway05
1d ago
Frequently (by no means all the time but often enough) that's grossly insufficient.
-Some patients remain essentially untreated. You don't need to take medication (there is however a slow process for forcing patients who are sufficiently dangerous). Nybbler murder patient may in fact want to murder no-one other than Nybbler, and behave more or less while in the hospital while refusing treatment. After the initial period further involuntary commitment involves a judge - the judge may say "well he hasn't done anything bad since he got here, maybe he won't murder Nybbler?" and off he goes. Walks out of the hospital, buys the gun, murder goes. This is not theoretical, it happens (sometimes even with mass shooting events but does also show up in the local news when the death count is low). Solution: force people to get treatment without their consent. Or force them to stay in the hospital until they consent. Both are significantly more rights destroying.
-Some patients are only dangerous when they use drugs. While intoxicated and for a while after they are a psychiatric problem but outside that the health care system has no control over them. People who keep smoking PCP and want to murder people while on PCP should probably not be allowed to own guns. This should be fixed by arresting people who use and sell PCP but society isn't really electing to do this these days. Solution: reengage the war on drugs. Not a popular option.
-Much more common and much trickier is that it is common for people to be committed, accept treatment, temporarily get better, and then relapse. They then become a threat again. Sometimes quite quickly. Much more quickly than any court process would go. Charitably (and in truth pretty commonly) this happens because medication works well at reducing things like hallucination and aggression but not the negative symptoms lack apathy and avolition. When your symptom is that you can't be motivated to take medication and you don't care if the other symptoms come back, well then it is hard to stay on medication. And then the risk comes back.
Making a public and credible threat to murder someone for reasons that are universally not given as acceptable (ex: for no reason at all or for reasons of delusion) should be exclusionary to owning guns. We aren't talking for political reasons or because the neighbor slept with your wife, we are talking because you are convinced the neighbor is Proxima Centauri.
Nybbler's issue seems to be (although he won't clarify it) that it didn't go through a legal proceeding. But opening up legal proceedings is a huge can of worms.
Let's say someone (police, healthcare worker, concerned person, whatever) can open a complaint about someone's safety to own weapons. That's time consuming, expensive, might involve temporarily seizing guns or the person, will involve litigating if expression of political beliefs counts... way more abusable than present state.
The fact of the matter is that the vast vast majority of people who are involuntarily committed* really should not be allowed to own guns. Failures are rare. Should you find one (for instance someone who did a shit ton of PCP for ten years and then spent 50 years not using PCP and wants some guns) the expungement process works pretty well.
The modal involuntary patient isn't actually suicidal or homicidal, instead they are something like a schizophrenic who is so severe they just can't feed or care for themselves. Someone that disorganized isn't safe to own anything remotely dangerous, and if they had the financial ability to own a car (most don't) they probably shouldn't.
*assuming you agree with the suicide end of things, that's a bit trickier.
Throwaway05
1d ago
I see Tchaikovsky come up on /r/Fantasy and /r/PrintSF quite a bit, but almost nobody ever mentions Shadows of the Apt, which I still feel is his best work.
Throwaway05
2d ago
So you want to pay the taxes required to run a criminal grade trial on everyone who is involuntary committed so that they can have their guns taken away by a jury of their peers. This would be expensive in a pure trial sense and because it would be slow people would be held unnecessarily - if you can go home after 4 days because the medication worked but you need to stay in the hospital (or be dispo'ed to jail/prison) for ....however many weeks to months it takes to hold an actual trial.... isn't that a worse violation of your rights?
Throwaway05
2d ago
Absolutely, and while overt delusional beliefs are what pop to non-medical people seeing or hearing about these patients, the real problem is the negative symptoms of schizophrenia (often manifesting as a total inability to care for oneself in a functional way). That is much less exciting but more important for commitment purposes a good chunk of the time.
I think a lot of the doubters here would be way more comfortable if they had a chance to stay in a city crisis center for five minutes.
Throwaway05
2d ago
That sounds like a plan. That sounds like you want this to be adjudicated in court instead. Explore that! Examine the consequences! Thank about it! Is it better? Worse?
I haven't seen good faith engagement from you in ages in this conversation. You clearly imply that some infringements on the right to bear arms is reasonable but you don't want to admit what that is then you later try and imply that you don't. Those are incompatible and you must pick.
Throwaway05
3d ago
That is not a plan.
Throwaway05
3d ago
What is your proposal.
Throwaway05
3d ago
Okay but the problem is that psychotically violent is a transient state - at present we hold them away from others while psychotically violent and then release them when they aren't.
A good number of people have one episode of violence or violent potential and then stop.
Likewise the mental health system is somewhat optimized for trying to predict violent potential in advance and head it off. Do you count the people who have committed that "pre crime" or not?
Throwaway05
3d ago
To be clear: you want the state to summarily execute between 5-10 percent of the population because of the presence of severe mental illness?
Throwaway05
3d ago
Bipolar + Schizophrenia + Schizoaffective disorder add up to something like 5% of the population. Not all of these people commit violence. Not all of these people end up with an involuntary commitment. Saying "you murdered someone during a manic episode I no longer feel comfortable with you living in the community" is one thing "the severity of your illness is so bad that someone thought you were going to hurt people but you didn't end up doing that, however I'm not sure I feel comfortable with you having guns even if you don't need to be in the hospital 100% of the time is another."
Plenty of people end up transiently psychotic because of things like medical illness, substance use (even caffeine!), sleep deprivation, stress, trauma and so on. Most of these do not go on to kill people. A fraction who do end up with an involuntary commitment are significantly more dangerous and risky.
Throwaway05
3d ago
I think a good thought experiment here is to look at traffic tickets.
Do you think cops should have flexibility in giving a ticket or not?
Choosing not to is also abomination of due process, it is inconsistent and potentially abusable and corrupt. It's also flexible and can work out well.
The system works better for most people overall when have some flexibility in the system. Some people are screwed over by that flexibility however in my experience it's usually for good reason (in this case: guy is likely an asshole).
If you want to remove the slack and flexibility in the system you can certainly advocate for that but you'll find it probably isn't what you want in practice.
With respect to this guy specifically, I got the impression that it seemed like he had more involvement with mental health care that he was letting on and was trying to minimize which is not a good sign.
Throwaway05
3d ago
Lets list some of the categories of patients this kinda thing applies to.
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Someone has a brief psychotic episode, has interest in killing someone but doesn't manage to do so. They have a 30% chance of not progressing into having any further episodes of psychosis.
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Someone uses drugs or alcohol. While under the influence of drugs or alcohol they become homicidal or suicidal.
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Someone has a medical problem like a brain tumor, dementia, or more reversible things like autoimmune encephalitis or hyperthyroidism. While medically unwell they become psychiatrically unwell.
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A totally normal person has a first time manic episode with threatened or actual HI/SI. Outside the manic episode they are totally normal. They take their medication but still have a risk of problems. Maybe they have a kid and end up with sleep deprivation. Maybe the run a 5k and become dehydrated and their lithium metabolism is altered.
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Schizophrenic guy who knows he is schizophrenic, takes a long acting injectable medication to make sure he doesn't forget. Symptoms are well controlled. Sometime over the course of his life his metabolism of the medicine changes and he ends up sick again (and dangerous).
You really want to lock up all of these people indefinitely?
Medicine and the legal system don't know with surety who will offend and who will be dangerous. So we try and be judicious in how much we violate rights. Summarily executing someone for being diagnosed with schizophrenia is a bit of an overshot. Locking people up indefinitely (especially when they have periods of healthy functioning that might even last decades) is also likely overshooting it.
It's also hideously expensive and drains resources that could be best used elsewhere.
They won't have guns anyway while locked up.
Why not start with less restrictive measures?
If individual autonomy isn't important to you (it certainly is to Nybbler) then the expense should certainly factor into it. How much extra in taxes do you want to pay to do this?
Throwaway05
3d ago
It's an argument about giving crazy people guns.
We make an effort to restrict people's rights to the minimum we can, even if it results in bad outcomes sometimes. Locking away someone indefinitely (or like, killing them) is extremely restrictive.
Giving them some rope with which to metaphorically hang themselves but not too much preserves autonomy as much as we can.
Throwaway05
3d ago
I mean this is the point, their exists a class of people in society who are not safe to themselves or others due to a mental illness (this is different from the class of people who are this way due to personality structure, life experience, genetics, racism, whatever - we call these criminals).
For many mental illnesses denial of the mental illness, denial of symptoms, denial of need for medications - all these things are frequent parts of the pathology (sniff test to make it make sense: if you are delusional of course you are going to think you don't have delusions).
People who acknowledge they have problems end up with a voluntary admission not an involuntary one "man you nearly killed yourself dude, you think being in the hospital for a few days would be good for you?"
In any case you come in, take meds, stabilize, get discharged. Then you go home and forget to take your beds, have medical stuff that happens that makes the meds don't work, decide not to take them "because it went away" whatever. Then you get sick again and dangerous.
Rights restriction (such involuntary outpatient commitment, forced medications, jail time, indefinite hospital stays) is usually the way - harm reduction approaches such as banning firearm access are both cheaper and much less disruptive to the patient.
This is why I want Nybbler to come up with an alternative plan because realistically the problem is often "jail and no guns" or "no jail and no guns" (even if it is just fancy jail with extra steps).
Throwaway05
3d ago
So I continue to hold him in the hospital against his will even though he is no longer a threat to himself or others? (he is only a threat after he goes home and stops taking his medicine).
That seems more rights destroying than preventing gun access, no?
Furthermore - who pays for this? Indefinite hospital stay is expensive as hell. What about the other people who need that bed?
Throwaway05
3d ago
The way states usually handle this is that the person has to have some thing happen like a: has a psychiatric illness b. is a credible threat to themselves or someone else.
The presence of criteria for a psychiatric illness is important here and does most the political protection.
A really common teaching interaction is something like "haha, yeah man this patient is delusional because he is Trump supporter and thinks Obama isn't a citizen" attending puts on a very serious face "no, absolutely not. Political beliefs are not delusional unless they are totally culturally dystonic and fixed, the fact that he won the election is proof that is isn't delusion blah blah...."
Psychiatry is in general a pretty pozzed specialty but they don't fuck around when it comes to that kind of stuff.
You will absolutely see patients get discharged who are odious, violent, domestic abusers, substance users and all kinds of other crap because they don't actually meet commitment criteria and aren't psychiatric.
Now you are more like to see something like "this patient does meet commitment criteria yet we'd usually let him go because it's probably safe to do so however he was using racial slurs towards the staff so in he goes." This is unprofessional but still unfortunately legit.
Throwaway05
3d ago
Guns are significantly more lethal than kitchen knives and screwdrivers. In the case of suicides for instance, it is very common for people to attempt suicide and then regret it. Means that are more lethal (especially more impulsively) are more likely to lead to completions.
I gotta imagine that most doctors have seen at least one patient who shot themselves in the head or attempted to do so and somehow survived. It is roouughhh.
The person who took a handful of melatonin in a suicide attempt is much better off afterwards.
Throwaway05
3d ago
He goes to a pshrink and mentions that he's feeling suicidal thoughts
This does not meet commitment criteria. He should be committed if he attempted to kill himself, or if he is likely to kill himself if sent home. Suicidal ideation is not enough. Suicidal ideation with plan and intent or suicide attempt is.
Well, obviously, you just keep him locked up, indefinitely
So you would rather lock people up indefinitely than allow them to go free and not have guns?
Throwaway05
3d ago
These are not in fact the options. Another option is to not deprive those who have been involuntary committed of their right to keep and bear arms once they are released.
Guy threatens to kill you for raping him. He gets admitted to the hospital. He gets discharged and still wants to kill you after he stops his meds, so he goes to a gun store, buys a gun, and shoots you.
How do you prevent this?
Throwaway05
3d ago
My right to be alive supersedes your right to have a gun.
People who dislike me because of X attribute (for instance jihadis) can have a gun. People who have said threatening things towards people like me can have a gun. People who have gone out and attacked people like me can't have a gun. People who have murdered people like me definitely can't have a gun.
That's what felons have done, committed a crime and so you lost the right. Involuntarily committed people have usually committed a crime (that does not go charged because we don't usually charge people for suicide attempts or attacking an ER nurse while psychotic), or have expressed a desire, willingness, and ability to commit a crime.
It is not assessed through a jury of peers, but this is why I'm asking what you want instead, because if you want that shit gets worse - do you want to be held until the legal system gets its shit together instead of just discharged from the hospital? Do you want your taxes to balloon?
Accept the current system, propose something else, or let your psychotic neighbor shoot you in the face.
You've also declined to say whether limitations should exist, which is clearly important.
To add to these examples, in later rounds of the US physician licensing examination (USMLE Step 3) they will sometimes ask questions which are designed to be novel - no way you know this specific fact or have seen it in a board prep resource. You are then asked to determine what would be the most likely answer based off of your understanding of the underlying biology and so on.
These are hard to do so you don't see too many of them, but it is possible.
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