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PaperclipPerfector  4mo ago (text post)   24759 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 6, 2024

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I don't know what you mean by this. What is "the trivial solution"?

Whatever you meant when you said "(and by the way, we can do so trivially)".

I am not injured in any such way. I explicitly presented the value of stopping the deluge of trivially-hackable devices with default passwords as a terminal value. You're just really off the mark.

I think you're being rather coy about it. When you tell me things like:

If you want to characterize any version of "we need to fix this problem (and by the way, we can do so trivially)" as being "my way or the highway", I think this is just a fully-general argument against fixing any problems ever, even the most trivial ones.

That means you're proposing a trivially simple fix, and consider me to be stubbornly and unreasonably standing in their way. That does not come off, "default passwords must be purged from the face of the Earth, even if it means the end of all tinkering". You do say the latter when someone talks to you for a bit, but this is after posts and posts of portraying anyone that objects as unreasonable and hyperbolic.

I actually explicitly said that I would consider all possible ideas, and that I was even open to the possibility that all options genuinely have too many demerits to implement. Literally in the comment you were just replying to. Please don't lie about what I've said.

You're the one lying about what you've said:

Nybbler would declare that this is, in fact, changing the culture of people who mass produce end-use consumer goods. That this is the only way, that we have to change their culture. If that is required, I am willing to do it.

You were literally explaining to me how getting rid of default passwords is a terminal values of yours just a moment ago. What are you even doing?

"default passwords must be purged from the face of the Earth, even if it means the end of all tinkering"

This is not what I have said. Not even remotely. I would be perfectly happy with actions that don't end all of tinkering. I would prefer them!

Nybbler would declare that this is, in fact, changing the culture of people who mass produce end-use consumer goods. That this is the only way, that we have to change their culture. If that is required, I am willing to do it.

We can move this to the other thread, because this was your solution. In the other thread, we can discuss whether you're willing to pursue your solution, even if it changes their culture. I am still open to arguments that your solution has too many demerits to be implemented, but I am currently on the side of being willing to do your solution, even though you have now discovered that it will, in fact, change a culture. I could be persuaded otherwise, but first let's see if you're willing to proceed with your own solution.

This is not what I have said. Not even remotely. I would be perfectly happy with actions that don't end all of tinkering. I would prefer them!

And you have also explicitly said that if actions that would not end all tinkering are not enough, you would end all tinkering. You may prefer less drastic solutions, but if you are open to the possibility of ending all tinkering, then I have described your views 100% correctly.

We can move this to the other thread, because this was your solution.

Stop. I only brought this up as evidence that I have correctly characterized your views. Stop shifting your the responsibility for your responses on Nybbler, you're the one that said this.

but first let's see if you're willing to proceed with your own solution.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? I'm not the Nybbler. It is, in fact, my solution, so yes I'm willing to proceed with it. But I'm not willing to work with someone who's open to the option of abolishing all tinkering.

And you have also explicitly said that if actions that would not end all tinkering are not enough, you would end all tinkering.

This is not true. I have not said this.

Nybbler would declare that this is, in fact, changing the culture of people who mass produce end-use consumer goods. That this is the only way, that we have to change their culture. If that is required, I am willing to do it.

Notice that there is nothing in there about the entire culture of tinkering. I'm assuming that whatever culture it is that we're changing, it's not the entire culture of tinkering. If you/he want to press that it would require destroying the entire culture of tinkering, I'd have to learn a lot more about what proposal is deemed necessary, why it is necessary, what implications it has, etc. I really really wouldn't want to do that, so if it came down to the case where nothing can possibly work without destroying the entire culture of tinkering, I may not do it.

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