site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 6, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Once you've changed your culture from "building cool stuff" to "checking regulatory boxes and making sure all the regulation-following is documented", you've already done a vast amount of damage. Even if the regulations themselves aren't too onerous.

Can you propose a way that we could change the culture to "do the trivial basic shit so we don't have billions of abhorrently bad products permeating all of our networks"? I'm wide open to ideas you have for how to do this without making anyone check any boxes, but it seems a little unlikely that they won't have to somehow come up with a culture that at least considers having a box for "is this thing not trivially insecure against a handful of the most basic mistakes that everyone has known about for years?"

No, you're asking for an impossibility. You can't have one culture which is both open to new ideas and dedicated to checking boxes.

Ok, I think we've made progress. It is literally impossible for the culture to bother taking the most basic steps to make the billions of devices on our networks not trivially hackable without causing some folks like you to shut down and stop being open to new ideas. These are the stakes as you have presented them. The only question that seems to be available to the general public is what they value.

Different folks can have different values and different answers. I personally fall on the side that I think you're actually just delivering a bullshit threat that is based on a lie. That it's akin to a child swearing that they're going to hold their breath until they die unless you let them have more cookies. No better than saying, "Nice IoT development space you have there; would be a shame if something happened to it." No better than a monopolist swearing that if you let others enter the market, shoddy products will kill everyone. That it's a false dichotomy, propped up just so you can avoid even the smallest iota of boredom, purely in your own self-interest.

But whatever. My opinion on that isn't important. You've laid down the stakes. Society made its choice years ago when California gave the first checkbox. The deed is already done. The only thing left is for us to watch what happens. Does innovation actually die? Do people actually just stop thinking about new ideas, because they might have to not put a default password on their new idea? I guess we'll find out.

Ok, I think we've made progress. It is literally impossible for the culture to bother taking the most basic steps to make the billions of devices on our networks not trivially hackable without causing some folks like you to shut down and stop being open to new ideas.

No, it's literally impossible to make a regulatory culture without shutting down new ideas. Perhaps there's some other way to get the result, but you can't have a culture with both properties. Once you put the commissars in place, initiative declines sharply, and that's unavoidable.

I guess we'll find out.

We've already found out in other areas. We just refuse to learn the lesson.