This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
But again, that was true of Ukrainians and Russians in every expensive bar in Dubai or Hong Kong for decades before this war. These are some of the top exporters of working girls. Some of the stories about 90s Moscow are also wild.
Prostitution or extreme hypergamy just seems to be more socially acceptable in these Slavic cultures than in others.
Yes of course. Syria and Afghanistan experienced devastation and migration outflows at a much bigger scale yet you don’t see many Syrian or Afghan prostitutes/gold diggers.
My point wasn’t that this situation didn’t exist before the war. It’s that, this situation exists! It got hyper turbo charged because of the war. It can’t be dismissed as silly propaganda
The evidence presented can be dismissed as silly propaganda. The original comment had a link to tweet with evidence that consisted of some claims and 4 photos presumably from Tinder. Same level of evidence would have been present before the war. Claims "go to any bar in Europe" are cheap.
At minimum, one would need statistics to prove it. (Recollections of experiences with/observing presumed hookers in MENA countries and engaging in hypotheses about cultural factors of mountain Slaves does not count as interrogating the evidence.) How many of Ukrainians in Europe are women? Apparently approx 4 million. How many relative to respective demographics stayed in Ukraine? Apparently there was 12 million women aged 14-54 in Ukraine in 2018. Assuming everyone of the 4 million were women from the 12 million, it is a Large fraction, but not all or a majority. More exact statistics would be needed, because I presume there are kids and grandmas included in the 4 million. How many of the women of relevant are single, and how many are engaging in low-grade prostitution, how many are engaging more chaste forms of dating? Evidence not easily found. How many of sex workers are voluntary versus coerced? Evidence not easily found.
edited to clarify: i am at zero level claiming my surfing of telegrams or field reports is in any way substantive evidence. please do not under any circumstance in any conversation or discussion here or outside say 'hey this pervo didn't see to many Ukie hookers around so they're all chaste damsels' or whatever.
Unedited text: I am, in all an explicit seriousness, appreciative of any sincere longitudinal or latitudinal 'study' proving that slavs - ukrainian or russian or whatever - are present in greater numbers to disrupt relationship or, more specific to my curiosity, sex worker markets.
Intuitively it makes perfect sense that we SHOULD see more hot single Ukrainians seeking comfort in the wallets of generous men within the new host countries they reside in, others have accurately noted that infidelity and hypergamy seem to be more present in Eastern Europeans sui generis.
BUT In my own explicit attempts to canvass the issue, I have observed zero uptick in Ukrainians in any of the markets I am aware of, including the ostensible hotbed of Dubai. I recognize that the physical distance means I'm not seeing refugees, but a quick gander at punter boards all don't see a surplus of Ukrainians at all.
If I am forced to drag this back to the culture war, where we boo Ukrainian men for being so stupid to die for NATO while their women shack up with lecherous exploitative Germans or Finns or whatever, I can confidently say I have NOT actually seen this in my depraved circles. Admittedly my own research for that is EXTREMELY low grade, but come on surely we would have at least a shitload of Polish or English forums complaining about Ukrainians stealing their blokes!
More options
Context Copy link
Do you normally refuse to entertain any opinions based on your own experiences as long as someone did not go through the trouble of collecting or locating almost impossible to find data? Or is this an isolated demand for rigour you are applying to this specific subject?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
The syrian and afghan prostitutes/gold diggers don't exist because they get stoned to death by their family members for stepping outside without a veil. This exaggerations is only a mild one, any requests for muslim working girls is met with extreme deflection due to scarcity of supply (there is also the aforementioned cultural 'acceptance' of sex work extant in other cultures that 2rafa highlighted, which does play a contributing though not exhaustive part).
The exception is Southeast Asia. A man can do EXTREMELY well passing as Arab to the local muslimahs, who if anything get praise for managing to sleep with an Arab.
I fail to see how this goes against anything I have said.
It’s trivial to observe that due to cultural factors eastern Slavic women have a tendency to easily become gold diggers or prostitutes under certain adverse conditions, while for example Muslim women don’t have this tendency under even more extreme adverse conditions. Your male relatives being prepared to use violence to keep your sexual purity is one of these cultural factors.
This doesn’t distract from my point at all.
Slavs are sluts and while Muslims are chaste (zero value judgment to those appellations) seems somewhat reductive but I do wonder if the axis is 'purity vs starvation' as opposed to innate sexual proclivities in the differing cultures. This is an idle thought not worth expending too many brain cells on; at least within the confined of this topics original bearing which I have risked derailing by thoughtlessly discussing perversions.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Exactly! I am an unashamed punter, so I can claim to have direct observable experience with the working girls in various countries, and so I am legit curious if the slavs (highest point on the price to quality curve) have increased in quantity. Cheaper slavs is generally a good thing for punters looking for a good time.
Can't comment on the hypergamy, I think thats a function of economics - the Dubai scene seems to indicate Slavs are actually more circumspect than other participants, surprisingly.
More options
Context Copy link
Socially acceptable? I don't get that impression. I would expect there to be more slut shaming in Russia than in Slovakia or Poland (are these the "others" you've been referring to?).
Can't be slutshamed in Russia if you snag a German husband!
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link