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Well we have proof that they made those choices based on the life they lead. Given the same factors the same thing would happen exactly the same way, because it did happen that way. If you were exactly the same as them in every way then the outcome would be the same.
I agree with you that if you were them, you would have made the same choices, but that comment didn't respond to what @ChickenOverlord was saying.
That is:
You: if you were the same as them, you'd make the same choices
ChickenOverlord: Only if choices are indeterminate
You: if you were the same as them, you'd make the same choices
That merely repeats your argument. It doesn't address his.
That said, I think both of you assume too much about the implications of determinism, saying that it strips one of responsibility.
@ChickenOverlord, you say, "and if it doesn't then this discussion doesn't even matter but it's not like I could stop us from having it." This does not seem true. This discussion, under the belief that we have no free will, does at least matter in the sense that it is a part of the set of influences upon us that shape who are and contribute to our choices. And, depending on what you mean by "could stop," you certainly could. If you wanted to, you could get up and leave, the only question is whether you will decide to, which is itself based on such features as who you are.
@AhhhTheFrench, you bring up causal influences upon choices to argue that this absolves one of responsibility for one's choices. I do not see any reason to think that that is the case. You were still the person who made those choices, which reflects on one's character, etc. It seems entirely reasonable to cast blame on someone for acting badly, according to their own character. That their own character was shaped by other factors is irrelevant. That doesn't make them better.
Actions will still have reactions even if they were unavoidable. We still need to lock up dangerous people and encourage healthy lifestyles. We should still punish the evil and reward the good. It was just always going to turn out the way that it does.
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Once again, only if you discount free will/individual choices/agency/whatever you want to call it. You're assuming that the same person in the exact same circumstances would always make the exact same choice.
Other than quantum mechanical shenanigans this seems like a settled fact of existence?
Seeing as it's been an open dispute in philosophy for at least 2,500 years I'd say no?
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They always will, as long as it was at the exact same point in time and all other factors were exactly the same, because that is what happend.
I agree with you, and not with him, but you're not addressing his claims at all.
He said if free will doesn't exist then this discussion ceases to matter, since it doesn't, there isn't really anything left to discuss.
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