site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 18, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Also, the traceability argument is very strange. Does the First require the government to be successful in its attempts to limit speech or is the attempt enough? The former seems ridiculous and not at all in keeping with precedent.

This is another one where I thought Aguinaga knocked it out of the park:

JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: What do you do with the fact that the platforms say no all the time to the government?

MR. AGUIÑAGA: Your Honor, it doesn't matter. I think Judge Posner made this -- this point in Backpage versus Dart, which is you could have a threatener who threatens the recipient, the recipient says no, and so the threatener packs their tent and walks away. That's still a First Amendment violation even though the recipient refused to comply.

...

I'm considering going into law and think constitutional stuff could be interesting, but seeing how SCOTUS cases actually go is depressing.

When I explain these sorts of cases to my wife, she asks why I'm not interested in doing law, and every time, I wind up answering that this is exactly why I don't want to! You can have a case that just seems obviously, incontrovertibly correct, but if you've got a justice that already decided what they'd like to do, it's not very hard for them to use brilliant legal reasoning to do what they want to do.

You can have a case that just seems obviously, incontrovertibly correct, but if you've got a justice that already decided what they'd like to do, it's not very hard for them to use brilliant legal reasoning to do what they want to do.

Not a lawyer, but I think this is much less of an issue in the day-to-day practice of law than when one's arguing novel and politically charged issues in front of the Supreme Court, or even in the kinds of court cases that you hear about in the news.

You can have a case that just seems obviously, incontrovertibly correct, but if you've got a justice that already decided what they'd like to do, it's not very hard for them to use brilliant legal reasoning to do what they want to do.

I came to the same conclusion a long time ago. Think of cases where an employee for a company was doing something stupid in violation of all OHSA, safety protocols, policy and direct orders from their manager. The employee now has a disability/requires ongoing expensive medical care. A judge will often twist the law into a pretzel to justify giving the employee money because the employee needs money to live and the company is involved and has money. Simple as that. Legalese is just the obfuscating ink cloud to provide some plausible deniability for the erroneous judgment.

You can have a case that just seems obviously, incontrovertibly correct, but if you've got a justice that already decided what they'd like to do, it's not very hard for them to use brilliant legal reasoning to do what they want to do.

Probably the most frustrating aspect of legal practice when you're autistically determined to reach the 'right' conclusion as a matter of law.

You can come armed to the teeth with precedent, facts, and legal argumentation and if you run into a Judge who is dead set on ruling a certain way you can 'lose' when they either rely on some particularly ambiguous precedent or some esoteric dissent or some novel legal concept they pulled straight from thin air (or read in a creative law review journal).

The Spirit of Aloha, for example.

Hence why I prefer when the Supreme Court sets out rules that at least sort of tie the law to something tangible and mostly immovable, rather than trying to weave increasingly intricate webs of reasoning to maintain an increasingly farcical standard which keeps collapsing when it comes into contact with the real world.

To be fair to Hawaii's Supreme Court, the spirit of aloha is a state legal standard established by statute in 1986. To be fair to anyone reading, normally statutes don't override constitutions, and this is definitely an example of a statute so hilariously vague that it's given judges a blank check to decide whatever they want.

Yep, quite fair.

I'm not even mad that they cite it, rather that the promulgate the idea that it can override constitutional rights and effectively grant the government extra authority if it argues for it artfully enough.

I'd be okay, on the other hand, referring to the "The Spirit of the Revolution" embodied by the Declaration of Independence as a justification for ignoring government restrictions in most cases.