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PaperclipPerfector  9mo ago (text post)   21700 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 14, 2024

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Wouldn't you be able to shoot down practically any other libertarian reform down on the basis of "Well, in a fully libertarian state this would work, but in ours...", too?

Yes, but if it's true then you could just take this as much a mark against gradual reform as a viable tactic. Liberal democrats often aren't very liberal or democratic when they're busy trying to do away with the king.

In some sense yes, I think “libertarianism” is not a viable political program in a democracy (or maybe at all). But for something like drug legalization which you mentioned below, a lot of the more mainstream arguments for this are that it actually reduces drug use, or makes it safer, or the cost-benefit of enforcement isn’t worth it etc. There’s plenty of arguments that even with our current political program it would be beneficial for various reasons, whether they are correct or not.

But for open borders- I don’t understand what is even meant by this when it is put forth as a policy. If the US were to pass a law tomorrow that literally anyone who wants to live here can show up and be entitled to the benefits of citizenship, we would immediately see millions of immigrants from poor countries around the world show up who are now entitled to welfare, food stamps, healthcare, housing and minimum wage which would become unsustainable immediately. We’re able to mostly handle high levels of illegal immigration now because these people are not entitled to government benefits or subject to minimum wage laws or other labor protections. When people argue for open borders as a policy- do they mean we maintain de jure immigration laws but just completely stop border enforcement and allow anyone who shows up to remain here as illegal immigrants not eligible for our entitlement programs?

Is he talking about a "fully libertarian state"? He brought up redistribution. You could have a full-on command economy without redistribution.

That's what I took "libertarian state" to mean.

Well, can you step me through it? How is a command economy without redistribution a "libertarian state"?

What I was trying to say is in an ideal libertarian state, where the government is just law/contract enforcement and a military or whatever, and does not otherwise redistribute money or interfere in much else - de jure open borders would at least be a possibility. Having actual, de jure, open borders in 2024 America would collapse the government relatively quickly if millions and millions of immigrants showed up and were given welfare, healthcare and other entitlements.

W-what? He mentioned "redistribution schemes, birthright citizenship, various employment regulations etc.?" - but that's besides the point, ie. that there are numerous other libertarian policies that one could presumably oppose on the basis of them happening in a country with redistribution schemes ("Can't legalize drugs since that creates drug addicts who live on state teat!" and so on).

W-what? He mentioned "redistribution schemes, birthright citizenship, various employment regulations etc.?"

I may have misunderstood what the "That's" was referring to, lol.

but that's besides the point, ie. that there are numerous other libertarian policies that one could presumably oppose on the basis of them happening in a country with redistribution schemes ("Can't legalize drugs since that creates drug addicts who live on state teat!" and so on).

Right, but that's beside the point, i.e. are open borders combined with redistribution a good idea or not? If you want to agree with him re: open borders, and then pull the thread more to see if he's consistent, and/or show him other flaws with libertarianism, that's fair game. But not really saying anything, and just poking holes is pretty lame.

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