site banner
PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   25097 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 25, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Either you care about white people, their bio-diversity, history and continued existence or you don't.

I'm white. I care about white people continuing to exist. I'm also not a white nationalist. We'll thrive just fine next to Mexicans and Asian immigrants. The Indian families on my block are not wounding my ability to thrive as a white man.

This appears to be the very falsest of dichotomies.

  1. I’m very worried about shrinking white population coupled with an ideology that says “white man bad.” Other groups already have a pro group in bias (except for whites since we bought into the whole color free paradigm). But add to that extra hatred and it isn’t pretty.

  2. I live in an Indian majority community. Often, I feel like a stranger in a foreign land. My wife gets visible in uncomfortable when I mention this alienation that occurs in my country. This isn’t anything the Indians are doing wrong and most of them seem like nice people. But it isn’t my culture and that is a net negative for me.

You are defining "care" to mean "form an ethnostate excluding non-whites". That's a pretty extreme form of "care". That's so extreme I will reject it as a good definition. There are valid ways to "care" without being a white nationalist.

Which one of these 'ways' does not, in some form, effectively exclude immigration and enforce some sort of segregation to maintain a white population? I am curious considering the state of Texas, which has recently gone majority hispanic.

We'll thrive just fine next to Mexicans and Asian immigrants.

At risk of sounding to snarky, that's like, your opinion, man.

This appears to be the very falsest of dichotomies.

You fit the description of someone who says they care whilst they don't, rather well.

I am curious considering the state of Texas, which has recently gone majority hispanic.

You know a lot of those hispanics are actually literally indistinguishable-from-southern-Europeans white, right?

And a lot of them are not.

Detroit was once called the 'Paris of the West'. I don't think anyone calls it this anymore, except as a sarcastic snub at Parisian decline. The Detroit that was has been permanently lost due to demographic changes.

Everything seems fine until it isn't. Suppose the Indian community, or the Mexican community vote for candidates who'll redistribute resources for whites to Indians on the basis of oppression (or any reason they can find) - why wouldn't they? That's in their interests. Why wouldn't they seek to advance their own collective self-interests? Helping the ingroup and harming the outgroup is basic human nature.

It seems worth noting that the Mexican community has not done this when they have had the opportunity, except incidentally(eg Spanish as an acceptable language of instruction in schools). The equivalent of those black activists pushing for reparations can't get elected.

As a practical matter we should limit immigration. Canada really opened the gates. They are something like 20% immigrant at this point. And then didn't build significantly more housing. They really screwed themselves on that last point.

I think avoiding Canada's horrible immigration policy is orthogonal to forming a white ethnostate.

We'll thrive just fine next to Mexicans and Asian immigrants. The Indian families on my block are not wounding my ability to thrive as a white man.

How are the 20% Indian families / other immigrants in Canada wounding the Canadians' ability to thrive?

Is quantity a quality of its own?

Every other Indian family on your block has a family member that they're trying to get to the US using existing laws. These people are probably not going to vote to shut down legal immigration until they've brought all the people they need first. Perhaps they'd even vote to make it more like Canada.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats