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Isn’t animals not having moral equivalence just another axiomatic assumption you can make? How would you prove that someone is in the wrong for assigning moral equivalence to chickens?
And supposing you value humans more due to our intelligence, does that mean it is more ethical to make unintelligent humans suffer than intelligent ones? You can substitute any other attribute other than intelligence here.
If instead you go the route of saying “I am arbitrarily drawing the line at humans because I am speciesist, but all other animals are fair game,” can’t someone else arbitrarily tighten that circle further and say “I am arbitrarily drawing the line at whites because I am racist, but all other humans and animals are fair game”?
Is there an argument that both allows you to ethically kill or factory farm animals for food, without also allowing someone else to ethically kill or factory farm animals for food? (Disregard how inefficient and pointless factory farming humans for meat would be, this is just a question about the ethics of it.)
I wouldn't, it's none of my business what weird other people value unless they make it my business by attempting to impose their beliefs on me.
Intelligence is an important but not the only reason I place moral weight on human life.
Marginally yes. And yes, as I know where you intend to go with this if you find a human with pig level intelligence then I'd barely consider them human and my opposition to their subjugation would primarily be aesthetic. A disgust of the type that causes me to oppose incest or bestialities that have been philosophically spherical cowed to cause no harm.
People already do that with race and I oppose it. The arguments over what moral line we draw is a live debate and I don't find this line of reasoning any more convincing from vegans trying to get me to include nonhumans than from racists trying to get me to exclude Laotians or whomever.
I presume you meant one of these to say humans. And yes, the argument is that humans are not morally fungible with animals. Not one chicken, not ten chickens, not infinity chickens.
And we’re back to the starting point, aren’t we?
What arguments do you present for drawing such a moral line between humans and animals?
You're the one including the premise in your argument, it's on you to prove this, not me to prove the negative.
I don’t see how one side is inherently more of a “positive” claim than the other. Regardless, if you take the position of moral difference by default, how do you respond to the Nazi who says “There is a moral difference between gassing Aryans and gassing Jews”?
I flagged the premise as being smuggled in here and lodged my disagreement. I know it wasn't you who did it but that's the point where it needed to be proved.
I would disagree with them on the basis that Jews and Aryans are both human and that human life is sacred. If I needed to ground out that human life is sacred I would say that I and all my loved ones are humans and I have a vested interest in their lives not being forfeit. If they were in power and planned on gassing Jews I would shoot them if able.
Ah gotcha, thanks for the clarification.
Fair enough! But surely the Nazi will also ground out their values in a similar manner: “Aryan lives are sacred because I and all my loved ones are Aryans. Non-Aryan lives though are not morally fungible with Aryan lives: not one, not ten, not infinity.”
What can you say to the Nazi that invalidates their argument, without also arguing on behalf of veganism?
Their Aryan loved ones have the same common humanity as the jews and the people of other nations. Maintaining the sacredness of humanity is a ward against other groups of people deciding to discount your people's humanity. It's a very strong schelling point.
That’s a good point, and I agree.
I suppose the only thing I have to say is that this is a rather realpolitik answer, no? It fails to be an argument against genocide if the Nazis ever gain such overwhelming power that they no longer fear a revolt from the “subhumans.” (Or if you find that scenario as unlikely as I do, if the AIs gain such overwhelming power that they no longer need to care about human desires.)
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Well if someone made the 'racist' argument I would tell them good luck with the law, which cares not about your bizarre dietary principles. But really my argument, which I think solves the dilemma in your second paragraph, is that I won't eat anything that can argue for its life. Humans are the only creatures that can do so to my knowledge, so I won't eat humans. If chickens or pigs developed that ability I don't think I'd be able to eat them either.
Sure, but we’re not debating the law as it is, only theoretical morality. Veganism is not the law in most (or all?) places on earth, but that doesn’t stop some people from arguing for that.
This sounds like a more refined version of “it’s okay to eat sufficiently unintelligent things.” Does this extend to human infants, non-verbal highly autistic adults, or anyone else whose intelligence falls below the threshold of arguing for their own existence?
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