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PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   25097 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 25, 2023

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It is quite unpleasant to argue against the core assumptions of veganism in a way that is epistemically rigorous. One has to tear down the entire concept of ethics as it is typically understood, then rebuild some sort of timeless decision theory-based normative system that reproduces the common-sense undisputed norms of "ethical" human behavior, but hopefully without the gaping security hole of giving in to utility monsters and bottomless pits of suffering.

That's one of the pitfalls of atheism. As a Catholic, I just tell them that animals don't have souls and that they're meant to serve people. It's obviously a little more sophisticated than that, but that's the gist of it. God told Adam and Eve to "fill the earth and subdue it." This doesn't mean that wanton cruelty or destruction of nature is permissible, since it's still part of God's creation and under our stewardship, but it doesn't mean that every tree is sacred or that animals have the same status as humans.

If you want to take a more secular tack, I'd try to bait them into taking the "every tree is sacred" path. First, vegans eat plants. So find out what their justification is for eating plants that were once as alive as the animals were. I'm on my way out the door but I trust you can take the argument from there, but it's much easier if you have religion on your side. Then all of the sudden they're arguing against your religion which is much more daunting than than simply arguing against meat-eating. Since most people assume I'm not religious it usually stops them cold.

As a Catholic, I just tell them that animals don't have souls and that they're meant to serve people.

As a non-religious person, I just tell them that we conquered the food chain and earned the right to do whatever we want. We won. If chickens didn't want to be eaten they should have invented guns. They didn't.

A pig will readily devour my corpse with no compunctions. I am simply reciprocating.

Do you think rich Nigeria wouldn't be doing a lot for african US?

No, I think they'd earmark the money and then steal it all. Of course you could say "Well what about a rich Nigeria that isn't corrupt", but there's really no end to changing the local culture once you let that cat out of the bag.

Once we said "switched places" it is up to argument how much of "being rich" we actually switch. A rich child of rich parents is not the same as a poor man who won 100 million in lottery.

I'm pretty sure most whites aren't Effective Altruists either.

It's kind of how I feel about free speech; I'm not interested in protecting the speech of anyone who would try and censor me. Once you stop abiding by the covenant, you are no longer protected by it.

Yes, but this is pretty much equivalent to saying "As a Scientologist, I just tell them that Xenu said eating animals is ok". It makes no sense to anyone who isn't already on board with your religion. Meanwhile, while it makes sense to you, that probably doesn't matter because you're probably not trying to justify the behavior to yourself, you already feel ok with it.

In Catholicism, animals are usually described as having souls, but not rational, eternal, spiritual ones.

First, vegans eat plants. So find out what their justification is for eating plants that were once as alive as the animals were.

I think the answer is usually that plants don't suffer when you kill them. They see animals as part of a category of "things that experience and suffer" along with humans. Even the non-utilitarian vegans I've met seem to value suffering and experience as key to moral evaluation, in a way that deontologists and virtue ethicists don't tend to.

Of course, we can't really know if animals are conscious (just as I can't know if you are), so who knows -- maybe plants actually are conscious and do suffer. But I think the assumption of veganism is that our similarities to animals make it more likely they do, so we should be on the safe side and not harm them.

Not a vegan, but that's my steelman.

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