site banner
PaperclipPerfector  11mo ago (text post)   29682 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 18, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Why the fuck does someone have to "make it out of the hood"? Just literally walk out of the hood.

I don’t disagree, but it’s important to remember that Trumpists seethed when Kevin Williamson suggested that poor whites in shithole parts of the US do the same thing and said their suffering was their fault if they didn’t.

Many poor people can move for more opportunity but choose not to.

Trumpists are the same as hood Blacks. They are populists who lack principles, their policy positions are motivated by the wellbeing of their group and not society as a whole. Majority low IQ stock both of them.

However one is paraded as massive sociopolitical issue whilst the other is not, so perception/discussion will be downstream of that.

They are populists who lack principles, their policy positions are motivated by the wellbeing of their group and not society as a whole.

I wish the sorts of characters you're referring to in these groups were motivated by the wellbeing of their group(s), because that's at least a perspective you can negotiate with. If that is their motivation, they're observably doing a terrible job of promoting it. Instead, I think Hanania gets it right in describing them as an oppositional culture.

Thereby showing that what's going on here is not a "black" problem but a "pampered westerner" problem. The US is legitimately the easiest place in the world to "make it big", and no, Europe isn't better, there is less inequality but the upper ceiling is so much lower that it's legitimiately harder to get paid the same amount in PPP dollars there than in the US.

there is less inequality but the upper ceiling is so much lower that it's legitimiately harder to get paid the same amount in PPP dollars there than in the US.

Why do you say "but" when those are the same thing?

There is less inequality in Indonesia than the US, but it's much harder to get paid US$30,000 PPP adjusted in Indonesia than the US.

Whereas if it were easier, higher achievers would tend to earn more, increasing inequality. What am I missing?

Not necessarily. Consider two societies. In A people either earn $100k or $50k or $20k, each is equally likely. In B people either earn $150k or $160k and each is equally likely. In this case everyone in B earns more than everyone in A, even though B has a lot lower inequality and it is a lot easier to make $160k in society B than society A, despite A having greater inequality.

You can also have the opposite situation, Consider B' where everyone either earns 15k or 16k except for one person who makes $50k. B' has basically the same level of inequality as B (if the population size is large, the single person making 50k won't change total inequality by much) and this level is lower than the level of inequality in A. However it's still a lot easier to make at least $50k in A (2/3rds of the population does it) compared to B' (only one person does it), despite B' having lower inequality.

I have underestimated the complexity of the question and your preparedness to consider it in detail. I idly wonder whether there are any real-world circumstances that would make those distributions likely, but I'm not willing to press the point.

I think the point is that western societies have enough of a de facto floor that inequality is mostly driven by the ease of reaching an upper middle class salary.

The UK is particularly bad here. At this point I’m no longer shocked by how much American friends make compared to British friends in similar jobs, often 2-3 times as much.

Thankfully high finance is one of the few places where we still have our compensation tied to US levels instead of UK wages. The tax rates and what we get in return for what we put in (less than what a normal earner gets) still make me seethe with rage though.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats