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PaperclipPerfector  11mo ago (text post)   3954 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for November 26, 2023

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

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You'd have to define "transphobia" here. If it's just generic hostility towards trans people, faul_sname's suggestion would probably work fine. If it's about people not wanting to use preferred pronouns, declare that trans women are women, accept trans people in bathrooms, sports, etc. etc. etc., you're talking about trying to change someone's fundamental worldview. It can be, but there's no formula that will work on every person.

Okay, I can give a bit more context. It's very likely that I'll travel to the US and live there in the coming years.
I feel a great deal of disgust at the mere thought of having to coexist with "trans people" and possibly having them as coworkers. I can't simply ask companies if they have any working for them because the mere question is a faux pas.

There are a lot fewer trans people in America than the media would have you believe, and America does not have a workplace culture which mandates being friends with your coworkers. You have to be polite, of course, but you don’t have to buddy-buddy with them.

Also, I have known several trans people (and worked with some on various stages of transition) and none of them were those flaming antifa provocateurs one sees on the internet so frequently. None of them brought that part of their identity to work (I knew only because I have known them pre and post, so it was hard not to know but if I didn't I may not have known at all), none of them were doing anything different from any other guy or gal, in fact. Maybe out of work they were living a wild life, who knows - I certainly did not and neither did the rest of the coworkers. I can't say how many of the trans people are like that and how many are different, it's just a few anecdata points, but I suspect there are much more such people than the militant flamboyant types. So if the OP isn't going to dig for it, he'd likely would never know. Of course, if he plans to do romance at work (bad idea anyway) then maybe more care is required, but otherwise I wouldn't worry too much.

I'd echo "touch grass" for this, though it sounds a bit snarky. I live in a big blue city, NYC, and I work for a large tech company that spouts all the usual platitudes about equality etc. Even so, the presence of trans people is wildly exaggerated by both pro and anti trans media. Presuming you aren't going out of your way to go to LGBT+ events, it's pretty rare to even see a trans person. I don't think I've ever actually worked with any.

On top of the numerical rareness, the vast majority of trans people act like ordinary people most of the time. If you interact with them, you'll be talking about whatever work you're doing or some pedestrian hobby or something, their gender situation doesn't really come up unless you go out of your way to ask about it, and most would rather avoid or minimize any discussion of it anyways. If they look a little strange or unpleasant, well most people are able to talk to men and women who are just ugly but not trans without spontaneously yelling out about how ugly they are, so you can probably handle treating actual trans people the same.

No need to let the admittedly poor behavior of a tiny minority of a tiny minority (and the disturbing excusing of it by activists...) cloud your mind about people around you who behave reasonably.

Some aspects of it may seem a little weird or gross, but I could name like 10 categories of people I find much more annoying going about my life in this city. I'm far more grossed out by the dude shooting up on the sidewalk or sleeping on a subway grate in filthy rags than the guy walking around and buying a sandwich with a 5-o'clock shadow and beer gut, but also a dress and high heels (yes, all things I've personally seen multiple times).

Good point. While I was living in California and visiting San Francisco, I have seen very flamboyant gay and trans types, and I am not personally a huge fan of that. I also have seen people sleeping on the streets, shooting up on the streets and defecating on the streets. To be honest, the latter types bothered me much, much more.

Touch grass. I think a fair amount of gender ideology is concerning, but the main risks are a) biological males in women's spaces like prisons and sports leading to danger for biological women, and b) children getting permanent medical decisions made that they will regret.

For you personally, there really aren't any downsides to working with trans people. Sometimes you have coworkers who are lazy or who are assholes, and those are both much worse than a coworker who's trans

I can't simply ask companies if they have any working for them because the mere question is a faux pas.

In the interview, when the interviewer(s) asks you if you have any questions for them, you could ask them if the workplace fosters an LGBTQ+ inclusive working culture, as this is something which is very important to you personally. Of course no interviewer will say "no way, we hate gay people and think they're scum", but if they seize the opportunity to give a lengthy spiel about how they celebrate Pride month and encourage staff to include their pronouns in their email signatures, that should tell you everything you need to know. They may even explicitly tell you that they have one or more "out" people on staff.

Two points:

  1. You are extremely unlikely to work with an "out" trans person. Given the amount of attention the trans issue gets in the media and popular imagination, you could be forgiven for thinking that 1 in every 5 Americans is trans, but even our resident trans posters acknowledge that the amount of attention the issue gets is radically disproportionate relative to the size of the population. Most estimates of the number of trans people in the US put it at less than 1% of the population, typically in the region of 0.4%. Of all the aspects of American culture that you'll find strange and alienating trying to adapt to, I wouldn't put the trans issue in the top ten.

  2. I don't think this should be a deal-breaker. I have my share of disagreements with the basic tenets of gender ideology. I'm actively opposed to many policies pursued in the purported interests of trans-inclusivity. In my previous job, I actually got into an argument with the head of the marketing department when she requested that we put our pronouns in our email signatures. I will even cop to a certain level of discomfort when I'm expected to address an obviously male person by a woman's name, which I'm not entirely proud of. All that said, if I was offered my dream job, the presence of a trans person on staff wouldn't be a deal-breaker. Even if you get hired by a company with a trans employee, they may work in a different department and you'll only have to interact with them a few times a year, if at all. You may feel a bit silly referring to them by their preferred pronouns, but I doubt the situation will arise very often, and if it makes you uncomfortable you can use circumlocutions to avoid doing so without giving offense (e.g. exclusively referring to them by name rather than using gendered pronouns). Trans activists love to talk a big game about how "you don't even know if you work with a trans person" but this is a bit of a cope, and most trans people don't pass very convincingly (not to mention the especially irritating phenomenon of "transtrenders" who make no effort to transition or even pass as women, but demand to be addressed with female pronouns anyway). But "most" is not the same as "all", and I've certainly met trans men who to a first approximation you might just assume were short, nerdy, dweeby men with narrow shoulders and reedy voices - so in the unlikely event that you get hired by a company with a trans person on staff, it's possible (if not likely) that you don't realise one of your colleagues is trans until they actually tell you.

It's so interesting that you and JulianRota say that this person is unlikely to work with a trans person. Perhaps it depends on what industry you are in, but in tech I've worked with quite a few trans women. Go to a "women in tech" conference and it will be half the crowd (ok, not really, but it sometimes feels like it).

I have not worked with any trans men, so it's likely they are all in non-profits somewhere.

To fill in some more details, I'm working in tech too, at a medium-large company. Not super hip and not one of the tech majors, but in the business, maybe like 1-1.5k developers total. The department I'm in has maybe like 10 or so female engineers, i.e. whose job is primarily writing code, and another few dozen in testing, product, and project management roles. Near as I can tell, all of them are ordinary straight biological women. I mean, I haven't like had sex with any of them or done medical exams or whatever, but all the ones I've seen certainly look like ordinary women, and most of them have normal-looking husbands or boyfriends and quite a few have been pregnant at some point. If any are secretly trans, I would be quite surprised. We have had a few gay men, but not any gay women that I know of.

There is exactly one person total at the company I am aware of who I suspect might be a trans woman. This person works in a completely different department and lives in another state, and I have never seen her in person or had any professional contact with her. I'm only guessing due to her face looking kind of masculine in a Slack profile pic and being oddly interested in pronoun declarations and other such woke things.

I've met a few (not that many, like 4-5 in total) of either at university, and in my experience trans individuals interests predominantly match their birth sex - so FtMs are mostly in psychology, social science and such.

That's a good point, it depends on the industry. I had no idea what field Silverdawn was looking for work in, so my reply was based on the proportion of trans people in the general population. If I'd known Silverdawn was looking for work as a software engineer or something, I would've adjusted my response accordingly.

I have not worked with any trans men, so it's likely they are all in non-profits somewhere.

Or their parents’ basements/the service industry- this is a spectacularly unsuccessful crowd that skews young.

Oh my, that's not quite what I imagined. Well... exposure therapy is a thing, so I'd still bet on faul_sname's idea here.

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