site banner
ZorbaTHut  2yr ago (text post)   35547 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 19, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

33
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I don’t quite understand your optimism here. Time will tell

Environmentalists have been claiming we can insulate and save our way to zero energy for decades, and they've got people believing it. We can't. The US EPA estimates a typical 20% reduction in heating and cooling in the most favorable climate zone. Unless European houses are typically uninsulated with leaky windows, it's not likely to be much better there. Now, 20% is a big number... but not when you're talking about the kinds of shortages expected in Europe. Same for thermostat reduction (and the better your insulation, the less you save from that)

I am a licensed HVAC tech and the 20% reduction number is a lie from the people who make these products so they can convince homeowners they’re cost effective. The real number is usually a lot less.

Do you have any sources for this? (I have no understanding of any of this but I know some people considering getting a heat pump)

Sources, no. Experience, yes. HVAC and insulation improvements are sold, mostly, financed, with the goal that the customer pays sufficiently less on the electric bill to make up for the payment. In general that doesn’t happen and the note on the improvements are rolled into the house payment the next time the homeowner refinances.

Now there are energy efficiency gains from a lot of that stuff(double paned windows, extra attic insulation, etc), just usually not enough to pay for itself in power bills(which the marketing data these EPA claims are based off of is trying to prove).

As for heat pumps in specific, they’re usually cheaper than electric resistor heating and more expensive than gas. They may or may not be greener than gas; depends on what your electricity comes from.

The 20% number wasn't heat pumps, but overall improvements from insulation. Looking at the EPA pdf, they make some pretty major assumptions that homes have no underfloor or rim joist insulation, 23% duct leakage, dreadful windows, and an arbitrary 4% HVAC mischarging figure.

I've been around a lot of homes, and haven't seen many that would make me consider that an average sample to base improvement estimates on.

Hell, my piece of shit house was cobbled together in the sample era and has none of those issues left to fix as low hanging fruit. Other than half the west wall currently being a plastic sheet... I should probably get back to that.

Unless European houses are typically uninsulated with leaky windows, it's not likely to be much better there.

I've never felt as cold as indoors in Germany in early March. It was quite a shock for someone who was used to -25C outdoors temperatures barely affecting indoor temperature due to decent insulation and central heating (that I always have to turn way down to avoid boiling inside).

I swear I get sick every time I go to a Mediterranean country in the winter. Usually when the day temps are like 15C. My body just cannot take the shock of insides of houses being colder than the outside.

It was also a revelation for me when visiting Ireland how much colder it feels when you actually can't escape (comparably milder than in Finland) outdoor temps to warm insulated homes for most of your time.

Dunno about Germany, but having spent a few weeks in Airbnb in winter in Ireland, wow. The host gave us electric blanket and told us to never mind that the room was not room temperature. And Ireland is not even cold!

Yeah I think this is a common thing! Coming from the Netherlands, I've heard people from Eastern Europe complain about the cold here. I was confused at first like "bro wtf, it's like -20C right now where you are from, how on earth are you cold here?!", but yeah, if you don't go outside too much and you crank up that thermostat indoors, I guess the Netherlands is effectively colder in the winter.

Likewise, I've experienced the opposite going to Norway in the winter. Everywhere inside was uncomfortably warm and stuffy for me. I prefer a bit of fresh air and 19C indoor temperatures all day.... But I guess that's harder to manage when it's -25C outside, compared to when it's 5C.

The Netherlands are also super humid. -20C and dry is much better than 5C and humid.

This is a huge effect.

Montreal and parts of ontario are near massive rapids, so no matter how cold it gets there's a constant churn of moisture entering the air.

I've almost fallen over shivering when the wind was right and it was -10 in Montreal, which would usually take -30 and heavy windchill in dry rural Ontario

(mind you very cold and dry conditions still messes up your skin vastly more... your core temperature might be find, but you get the equivalent of a major sunburn from just the wind)

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats