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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   25232 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023

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You're probably not hanging around with the women in beekeeper outfits though.

Consider also, taqiya. While I personally know Muslims that are quite evidently "moderate" based on the part where they don't seem to follow the actual religion and like drinking just fine, it's worth keeping in mind that lying about one's beliefs is explicitly covered as an acceptable thing to do in Islam.

I don’t think lying is the reason, I am led to understand taqiya is more of a shia thing, and I am reluctant to go straight for the bad faith accusation .

But it’s easy to miss the radicalism if you don’t ask specific questions. About apostates, jews, cartoons, palestine. I was taken aback more than once by the complete change in demeanor and attitude once I breached those subjects with educated , otherwise pleasant acquaintances. I realized then that not only were we not going to be friends, but peaceful coexistence with those who believe what they believe was going to be a tall order. Most were middle eastern though, and this was in europe (turks were generally ok).

I've rarely seen the word "taqiya" used in some other context than basically making the whole idea "all Muslims are fundamentalists" unfalsifiable; should some Muslim appear to be moderate, then they are just a fundamentalist who is lying, because taqiya exists.

Actually, I knew a palestinian relatively well at uni, and I asked him about taqiya, and he said ‘taqiya? Taqqiyyya? Oh, yes, it means small hat’. He could have been lying of course, but given that we had already discussed politics extensively, and he had candidly admitted to supporting death for apostates, cartoonists, jews, calling all western women whores , believing all kinds of conspiracy theories, mostly about jews, and so on, (nice guy otherwise) , I think he was being honest.

He's probably playing dumb; the words are near-homophones. Small hat, Lying to hide one's beliefs

Hold on, we got an arabophone right here : @ymeskhout , ever heard of taqiya, the thing that isn't a hat ?

No, the only time I ever see taqiya mentioned is within discussions in the US about how "all Muslims are fundamentalists and will pretend otherwise".

I've been an atheist for several decades, but I don't know if I'd be accused of taqiya. There are some things I can say here that might be sufficiently persuasive, but I also don't want Zorba to get Charlie Hebdo-ed because of me.

Right, as I thought. I don’t think anyone here would accuse you of taqiya.

As far as you can tell, is there anything resembling this religious lying concept in the arab culture?

I don't think I have the most representative experience to draw from but I'm really struggling to think of an example. The only instances that come to mind are of the opposite problem, where people are often too outspoken about their beliefs. I knew a Moroccan guy that worked as middle school teacher, and he had to be disciplined a couple of times by the administration before he learned to keep a leash on his disgust of homosexuality. There's also the incentive to lie to other Muslims about all the beers you drank and the white women you've slept with, but that's par the course for religions.

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I think the taqqiya as lying about your beliefs is a shia doctrine and most palestinians are sunni, anyways.

I think it more likely he didn't know the other meaning, because it's archaic/obscure.

turks were generally ok

This matches my experience perfectly in the States. My Turkish work buddy informed me on a couple occasions with questions I had about decidedly non-Islamic behavior that he's, "not that kind of Muslim". In stark contrast, I had an Egyptian colleague that was entirely serious and entirely literal about Islam in a disconcerting way. Good guy, good family man, good scientist, but damn, his view of the world is not reconcilable with mine and the only extent to which we can live together is the extent to which he has no political power.

Many American Turks are wealthy and secular (this is true in all Anglo countries including the UK and Canada). It’s German, Dutch and other European Turks who tend to be descended from poor, deeply religious Anatolian peasants. See this chart.

A similar situation exists between American Pakistanis (largely upper middle class, many doctors and engineers, some migrants from non-Sunni minority religious groups) and British Pakistanis (overwhelmingly descended from poor, highly religious peasants from around the city of Mirpur in Azad Kashmir).

Most ethnic Turks in the UK in my experience are actually Turkish Cypriots (Wikipedia confirms this), and are descended from people who took low-grade civilian jobs at the British military bases on Cyprus. So not wealthy, although in practice usually secular.

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