naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
I would contest that probability. From my understanding, there is no confirmed case of a plush octopus used to signal antisemitism.
Basically anything can be a dog whistle. If there was a pound note or anything related to money in the background, they would claim that it was related to claims that the Jews controlled global finance. If it was a plush wolf, people would point out that the Nazis named lot of things after wolves. If it was a German Shepard plushy, that is obviously a reference to Hitler's dog. A goblin is /obviously/ just a stereotype of a Jewish person, so a Harry Potter book would be Problematic. Gas stoves are dog whistles for pro Holocaust positions. The signs in the photo were not written in Fraktur, just like the Nazis got rid of Fraktur. They are also written in English, a Germanic (!) language. Of course, England expelled the Jews at some point, so this is a clear call for the Jews to be expelled from both the UK and Israel. Any visible number which contains the digit sequence 18 or 88 is also antisemitic.
If Greta had placed her plushy on a globe, then I would concede that there is a significant probability that this is meant as a homage to Nazi caricatures. As it is, the octopus is the most unobjectionable part of the picture.
Please don't abuse the phrasing "listen to what people say" when you actually mean "speculate what people mean". The entire point of "take them at their word" is to take them at their literal word. If you want to use this phrase, please link a video of Greta Thunberg literally advocating Jewish genocide in those exact terms.
I find it extremely unlikely that the octopus carries any of the significance you’re attributing to it. In addition, she’s “tell[ing] you they support killing Jews” in the same sense that one of your opponents might say that people who say “I stand with Israel” or whatever are directly telling you they’re ok with apartheid and bombing children. The argument is silly no matter who uses it.
Disclaimer: I don’t care about Thunberg in general, and am annoyed to he placed in the position of defending a professional activist. Hamas and mass civilian massacres are terrible.
The debate is better when people admit what they actually mean.
As far as Gaza goes I support an apartheid state and bombing children in Gaza as collateral damage of hitting military targets. We should admit that Free Palestine actually means - Genocide of Jews.
Southkraut
A tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
sliders1234 1yr ago
The debate is better when people admit what they actually mean.
FWIF I don't have a dog in the Israeli-Palestinian fight (though I suppose I'm indirectly connected to one side, but not sufficiently to make me care). I'm just pro-squid.
I doubt that particular person in the photo supports genociding Jews. She likely supports changes in the status quo that could plausibly end with violent ethnic cleansing of Jews from the area (I think it would lead to a civil war, and who would win would depend heavily on contingent things that happened in the interim), but she probably also doesn’t believe that’s the case.
The most charitable take is wanton negligence and being a useful idiot.
We literally just saw 1500 Israeli civilians killed. In the most brutal fashion possible.
This would be like being a member of the Oakland Raiders. You just saw Henry Ruggs get obliterated and drive 150 mph and kill someone. You then do the same action the next day. There are charitable takes and on Oct 5 it could be understood not to understand what they mean. But when you do the same behavior the next day that led to loss of life well you don’t have an excuse to be that dumb anymore.
There is a point where both sidism fails and at the motte we don’t need to take every viewpoint as being rational. You should update your beliefs when you watch concert goers machined gun and mothers babies cut out if their stomache and beheaded.
If you are going to back genocide of the Jews then defend genocide of the Jews.
I think negligence and useful idiocy is the correct interpretation in this case, not just the charitable one. I don’t think it’s likely that anyone in that picture ‘backs the genocide of the Jews’ in the ordinary sense of those words. My argument isn’t in favor of their position, it’s that the octopus isn’t an antisemitic dog-whistle and the ‘Free Palestine’ sign is very unlikely (in this particular case) to be calling for genocide or even ethnic cleansing of Jews (though a one-state solution could very well end that way). There is a sense in which that could be said to be ‘calling’ for that outcome, but it’s a very odd way of saying that with a high potential for misunderstanding.
I’m honestly not 100% sure what sport the Oakland Raiders play (football?), and the metaphor went way over my head.
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Notes -
She chooses to put one item in the picture. What’s the probability of that one item being associated with antisemitism? 1 in 50k?
It doesn’t make any Bayesian sense to take the assumption it wasn’t on purpose.
I would contest that probability. From my understanding, there is no confirmed case of a plush octopus used to signal antisemitism.
Basically anything can be a dog whistle. If there was a pound note or anything related to money in the background, they would claim that it was related to claims that the Jews controlled global finance. If it was a plush wolf, people would point out that the Nazis named lot of things after wolves. If it was a German Shepard plushy, that is obviously a reference to Hitler's dog. A goblin is /obviously/ just a stereotype of a Jewish person, so a Harry Potter book would be Problematic. Gas stoves are dog whistles for pro Holocaust positions. The signs in the photo were not written in Fraktur, just like the Nazis got rid of Fraktur. They are also written in English, a Germanic (!) language. Of course, England expelled the Jews at some point, so this is a clear call for the Jews to be expelled from both the UK and Israel. Any visible number which contains the digit sequence 18 or 88 is also antisemitic.
If Greta had placed her plushy on a globe, then I would concede that there is a significant probability that this is meant as a homage to Nazi caricatures. As it is, the octopus is the most unobjectionable part of the picture.
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If it had been a frowning dog, would we be talking about Blondie right now?
No we will just listen to what people say. And when they tell you they support killing Jews we will take them at their word.
If a nazi walked around with an easy bake oven I’m not going to assume it meant he just wanted a cupcake
Please don't abuse the phrasing "listen to what people say" when you actually mean "speculate what people mean". The entire point of "take them at their word" is to take them at their literal word. If you want to use this phrase, please link a video of Greta Thunberg literally advocating Jewish genocide in those exact terms.
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I find it extremely unlikely that the octopus carries any of the significance you’re attributing to it. In addition, she’s “tell[ing] you they support killing Jews” in the same sense that one of your opponents might say that people who say “I stand with Israel” or whatever are directly telling you they’re ok with apartheid and bombing children. The argument is silly no matter who uses it.
Disclaimer: I don’t care about Thunberg in general, and am annoyed to he placed in the position of defending a professional activist. Hamas and mass civilian massacres are terrible.
The debate is better when people admit what they actually mean.
As far as Gaza goes I support an apartheid state and bombing children in Gaza as collateral damage of hitting military targets. We should admit that Free Palestine actually means - Genocide of Jews.
FWIF I don't have a dog in the Israeli-Palestinian fight (though I suppose I'm indirectly connected to one side, but not sufficiently to make me care). I'm just pro-squid.
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I doubt that particular person in the photo supports genociding Jews. She likely supports changes in the status quo that could plausibly end with violent ethnic cleansing of Jews from the area (I think it would lead to a civil war, and who would win would depend heavily on contingent things that happened in the interim), but she probably also doesn’t believe that’s the case.
The most charitable take is wanton negligence and being a useful idiot.
We literally just saw 1500 Israeli civilians killed. In the most brutal fashion possible.
This would be like being a member of the Oakland Raiders. You just saw Henry Ruggs get obliterated and drive 150 mph and kill someone. You then do the same action the next day. There are charitable takes and on Oct 5 it could be understood not to understand what they mean. But when you do the same behavior the next day that led to loss of life well you don’t have an excuse to be that dumb anymore.
There is a point where both sidism fails and at the motte we don’t need to take every viewpoint as being rational. You should update your beliefs when you watch concert goers machined gun and mothers babies cut out if their stomache and beheaded.
If you are going to back genocide of the Jews then defend genocide of the Jews.
I think negligence and useful idiocy is the correct interpretation in this case, not just the charitable one. I don’t think it’s likely that anyone in that picture ‘backs the genocide of the Jews’ in the ordinary sense of those words. My argument isn’t in favor of their position, it’s that the octopus isn’t an antisemitic dog-whistle and the ‘Free Palestine’ sign is very unlikely (in this particular case) to be calling for genocide or even ethnic cleansing of Jews (though a one-state solution could very well end that way). There is a sense in which that could be said to be ‘calling’ for that outcome, but it’s a very odd way of saying that with a high potential for misunderstanding.
I’m honestly not 100% sure what sport the Oakland Raiders play (football?), and the metaphor went way over my head.
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