naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
I’m not sure how you can describe the recent Palestinian attack on Israel other than it’s a hate crime and genocide. She then posted support for them with no qualifiers. That is being extremely charitable.
The right never gets that. Even say the Proud Boys who leader is Afro-Caribbean was accused in a debate of being a white supremacists organization. If I’m even not using that standard but an easier standard of you just backed an organization that did genocide with no qualifications then it seems to be fair that they back Jewish genocide. There are lines for being charitable, this is not it.
Even the most charitable take is she something like anti-growth so she’s fine with murdering people for that goal. Maybe that’s not anti-semitism but there is no functional difference in the results between antisemitism and her position. It’s almost like a Nazi saying I don’t hate Jews we just needed their land for ethnic Germans to breathe.
Greta holds favorable views of a population that contains a substantial percentage of people who have been shown by word or action to support or excuse brutal acts of terror against Israelis.
Greta holds certain unfavorable views about the Israeli state common among far left anti-colonialist activist types.
The TeeTurtle reversible Octopus plush, which went viral on TikTok sometime before January 2021 [ https://sports.yahoo.com/tiktokers-using-reversible-octopus-plushie-174529042.html ] specifically for its utility in helping people communicate their emotions, is in fact a personal item that Greta owns because she finds it useful in communicating her emotions, and it appears in the photo for this reason alone.
I disagree with others who have conceded that she "accidentally used an antisemitic dogwhistle", as if she wore a number 88 sports jersey or waved her hand in a way that looked like a Nazi salute. To me, the crux of the issue is that a chibi octopus is simply not an antisemitic dogwhistle. Assertions linking it to the sprawling octopus/kraken political cartoon trope seem to me to be an incredible reach and a transparently post-hoc construction invented for this specific case at this specific moment. I obviously can't prove it, but I have a very strong impression that at no point in history has anyone ever surreptitiously included an octopus in a piece of content in order to subtly signal antisemitism to fellow antisemites. When the sprawling octopus trope is occasionally made use of as a representation of Jewish power or conspiracy, it's explicitly not as a 'dogwhistle', it's necessarily the central feature of the work. Political cartoons aren't subtle about what is supposed to represent what. There's nothing inherent about octopuses that's antisemitic, or at least there wasn't until October 21st, 2023. It's the sprawling octopus visual trope that's been considered potentially antisemitic by some, and the plush is about as far away from an example of the visual trope as you can get while still being an octopus.
It seems like there's two different discussions happening here - is Greta potentially an ideological enemy of the state of Israel, whose general support for the Palestinian people as a whole necessarily implies she supports some people who wish to see Israel destroyed and are themselves supporting or engaging in violent acts to further that goal? Sure, potentially, logically you can get there. I'm no fan of Greta, so I have no aversion to any of that being true. Does the potential truth value of that make it any more plausible that her TeeTurtle reversible Octopus plush is inherently, or was being used in this context as, an antisemitic hate symbol? No, I don't think it does, and I apparently am willing to die on the hill that it doesn't!
(The discussion about the terminal moral implications of pro-Palestinian activists' rhetoric is probably the more important one, but the plush thing is what the comment thread is about, so.)
Is indistinguishable from terrorism and potentially genocide. It’s no different than posting pro Al-queda stuff after 9/11.
Not very indistinguishable from Genocide but at minimum against everything Pax Romana and international law etc that has minimized violence since WW2. If what you support leads to mass deaths then it’s just mass death promoting.
That’s weird. Curious she chose one thing to put in her photo with her history of knowing how to do photos with antisemitic vibes.
I really wish right wingers ever got this kind of charitable takes. Of course I’ve been accused of being a white supremacists because I have a favorable opinion of Enrique Tarrio who well hasn’t killed black people.
Or we can just go with she came out and supported a group that just killed a bunch of unarmed Jews with zero military equipment including babies and old people and then included an item used in antisemitic tropes. Maybe she’s really that much of an autistic useful idiot.
If there aren't, there may be soon. Pictures of Greta loading cattle cars or ovens can join the tasteful / erotic / disturbing pictures of her on a certain anonymous image board.
I really wish right wingers ever got this kind of charitable takes.
As do I! I wish everyone received charitable takes, and I'm damned well going to fight for everyone to receive charitable takes (other than possibly in a "I know you didn’t mean this, but now maybe you are a bit more empathetic to what it's like to be on the receiving end of this sort of thing, and how stupid it all is.")
Her core message is antisemitism. Free Palestine is antisemitism. Palestine elected Hamas. Majority still publically support Hamas. Hamas just executed Jews at scale. Try to claim that it’s not antisemitism isn’t some charitable take. It’s wrong.
Pray for Peace etc would be fine etc. backing those who do genocide just makes you antisemitic.
If you have any suggestions for Israel as to how to successfully destroy Hamas without hurting any women and children, I'm sure they would be thrilled to hear them.
Well the whole government of Israel uses Israeli civilians as their excuse to genocide the Palestinian people yes.
Who knows how many IDF veterans were at that festival as well.
Too much heat, not enough light (or effort).
Looking upthread, I see that this is at the bottom of a chain of low-effort single-sentence back-and-forth--which you started, but which @AshLael and @sun should have known better than to feed. This thread is a good example of why we frown at short posts, even though many short posts are good and probably in some cases we should encourage shorter posts.
Would seem to fit for Hamas attacking civilians. As far I know every Israel has done has been within Geneva convention allowed war acts. And they go much farther like giving warnings before bombing. Them the laws.
How would you feel if some government labelled your family "collateral damage in urban combat" after trapping them in their neighborhood, cutting power and water and bombing their housing?
Would you be upset or would you consider it fair according to the Geneva rules of war?
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Notes -
I’m not sure how you can describe the recent Palestinian attack on Israel other than it’s a hate crime and genocide. She then posted support for them with no qualifiers. That is being extremely charitable.
The right never gets that. Even say the Proud Boys who leader is Afro-Caribbean was accused in a debate of being a white supremacists organization. If I’m even not using that standard but an easier standard of you just backed an organization that did genocide with no qualifications then it seems to be fair that they back Jewish genocide. There are lines for being charitable, this is not it.
Even the most charitable take is she something like anti-growth so she’s fine with murdering people for that goal. Maybe that’s not anti-semitism but there is no functional difference in the results between antisemitism and her position. It’s almost like a Nazi saying I don’t hate Jews we just needed their land for ethnic Germans to breathe.
I think it can be simultaneously true that:
I disagree with others who have conceded that she "accidentally used an antisemitic dogwhistle", as if she wore a number 88 sports jersey or waved her hand in a way that looked like a Nazi salute. To me, the crux of the issue is that a chibi octopus is simply not an antisemitic dogwhistle. Assertions linking it to the sprawling octopus/kraken political cartoon trope seem to me to be an incredible reach and a transparently post-hoc construction invented for this specific case at this specific moment. I obviously can't prove it, but I have a very strong impression that at no point in history has anyone ever surreptitiously included an octopus in a piece of content in order to subtly signal antisemitism to fellow antisemites. When the sprawling octopus trope is occasionally made use of as a representation of Jewish power or conspiracy, it's explicitly not as a 'dogwhistle', it's necessarily the central feature of the work. Political cartoons aren't subtle about what is supposed to represent what. There's nothing inherent about octopuses that's antisemitic, or at least there wasn't until October 21st, 2023. It's the sprawling octopus visual trope that's been considered potentially antisemitic by some, and the plush is about as far away from an example of the visual trope as you can get while still being an octopus.
It seems like there's two different discussions happening here - is Greta potentially an ideological enemy of the state of Israel, whose general support for the Palestinian people as a whole necessarily implies she supports some people who wish to see Israel destroyed and are themselves supporting or engaging in violent acts to further that goal? Sure, potentially, logically you can get there. I'm no fan of Greta, so I have no aversion to any of that being true. Does the potential truth value of that make it any more plausible that her TeeTurtle reversible Octopus plush is inherently, or was being used in this context as, an antisemitic hate symbol? No, I don't think it does, and I apparently am willing to die on the hill that it doesn't!
(The discussion about the terminal moral implications of pro-Palestinian activists' rhetoric is probably the more important one, but the plush thing is what the comment thread is about, so.)
Is indistinguishable from terrorism and potentially genocide. It’s no different than posting pro Al-queda stuff after 9/11.
Not very indistinguishable from Genocide but at minimum against everything Pax Romana and international law etc that has minimized violence since WW2. If what you support leads to mass deaths then it’s just mass death promoting.
That’s weird. Curious she chose one thing to put in her photo with her history of knowing how to do photos with antisemitic vibes.
I really wish right wingers ever got this kind of charitable takes. Of course I’ve been accused of being a white supremacists because I have a favorable opinion of Enrique Tarrio who well hasn’t killed black people.
Or we can just go with she came out and supported a group that just killed a bunch of unarmed Jews with zero military equipment including babies and old people and then included an item used in antisemitic tropes. Maybe she’s really that much of an autistic useful idiot.
Wait, there are photos of Greta loading cattle-cars or something?
If there aren't, there may be soon. Pictures of Greta loading cattle cars or ovens can join the tasteful / erotic / disturbing pictures of her on a certain anonymous image board.
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As do I! I wish everyone received charitable takes, and I'm damned well going to fight for everyone to receive charitable takes (other than possibly in a "I know you didn’t mean this, but now maybe you are a bit more empathetic to what it's like to be on the receiving end of this sort of thing, and how stupid it all is.")
Her core message is antisemitism. Free Palestine is antisemitism. Palestine elected Hamas. Majority still publically support Hamas. Hamas just executed Jews at scale. Try to claim that it’s not antisemitism isn’t some charitable take. It’s wrong.
Pray for Peace etc would be fine etc. backing those who do genocide just makes you antisemitic.
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If killing ~1200 people is a genocide, what is Israel doing to the Palestinians now?
Eliminating a military threat.
Why are women and children considered military threats to the Israeli governments?
They aren't. Hamas is a military threat.
If you have any suggestions for Israel as to how to successfully destroy Hamas without hurting any women and children, I'm sure they would be thrilled to hear them.
One weird trick. The Messiah conquered the whole world with a simple suggestion: love thy enemies.
How to get rid of Hamas:
Cool. Let me know how you go converting Gaza.
Tutorial is called 'Acts' but you need to figure out the rest as well and make it your own before you can hope to spread the Word.
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The same reason why a tank's armor is a part of it.
Would festival-goers in Israel be part of the IDF's "tank armor" by that definition?
Were Israeli fighters using the festival as cover? In any case, it wouldn't be justifiable to rape and pillage the civilians there.
Well the whole government of Israel uses Israeli civilians as their excuse to genocide the Palestinian people yes.
Who knows how many IDF veterans were at that festival as well.
Too much heat, not enough light (or effort).
Looking upthread, I see that this is at the bottom of a chain of low-effort single-sentence back-and-forth--which you started, but which @AshLael and @sun should have known better than to feed. This thread is a good example of why we frown at short posts, even though many short posts are good and probably in some cases we should encourage shorter posts.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
Would seem to fit for Hamas attacking civilians. As far I know every Israel has done has been within Geneva convention allowed war acts. And they go much farther like giving warnings before bombing. Them the laws.
A genocide with a warning is no longer a genocide? I guess that's what these Palestinians get for living next to evil terrorists uh.
There's a difference between "deliberately targeting civilians" and "collateral damage in urban combat".
How would you feel if some government labelled your family "collateral damage in urban combat" after trapping them in their neighborhood, cutting power and water and bombing their housing? Would you be upset or would you consider it fair according to the Geneva rules of war?
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