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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   25086 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 16, 2023

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First off you seem to be conflating immigration with naturalization/citizenship. The US didn't start restricting immigration at federal level a until 1866, prior to that our borders had basically been open with anyone who could afford the boat ride welcome to settle. What was regulated was who could vote or run for office, the requirement being that you had to own property within the states and been a resident for a minimum of 5 years. Slaves obviously weren't going to be owning property, so they were out, which is where the old "wealthy white landowner" line comes from. However, the "white" part is complicated by the fact that we also see multiple occasions in the northern colonies of free blacks successfully asserting their "white" status in court by dint of being both Christian and (in kind of an inverse of the one-drop rule) being of English/European descent.

Given that most of the immigration laws of the 19th and early 20th century were specifically targeted against "Asians and other non-Christians" I think the annoying Evangelicals have a much stronger case for arguing that the US had been founded as an explicitly Christian nation, than the woke white kids do of claiming that it was founded on white nationalism.

Coming back to the issue of slavery, reading contemporary accounts of the founding it's clear that it was a very contentious topic at the time and one who's can kept getting kicked down the road. It was so contentious in fact that one of the bloodiest wars in recorded history up to that point would be fought over it. The anti-slavery camp won that one.

As for more recent history I'm not "denying that conservative whites are racist" so much as questioning your definition of "conservative". The coalition of business-owners and conservative Christians that originally backed the civil rights act and ultimately defeated segregation was largely Republican and has remained so.

The typical woke retort is to bring up the alleged "southern strategy" but this is just another one of their talking points/bludgeons that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Contra popular narratives about the two major parties pulling a switch-a-roo in the 60s as a result of the CRA, it's not until the mid to late nineties that the south becomes reliably republican which is kind of awkward for democratic partisans because it suggests that as the South became less racist, they also became less inclined to vote for the party of Woodrow Wilson and George Wallace.

You didn't respond to anything I asked you. This is just a rambling about things that apparently annoy you.

Were George Wallace and Strom Thurmond members of the woke left? Are you denying that conservative whites, especially in the South, were deeply racist until very recently? David Duke almost won in Louisiana in the 1980s.

Who were these people in the Jim Crow South voting for it? Did the woke left travel back in time and vote in those elections or did every Southern state except Texas in 1968 vote for Republicans or a segregationist after the CRA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_United_States_presidential_election

The coalition of business-owners and conservative Christians that originally backed the civil rights act and ultimately defeated segregation was largely Republican and has remained so

Were the people on the opposite side of this debate? The woke left? Were the woke left the ones beating black protesters here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_to_Montgomery_marches#%22Bloody_Sunday%22_events

You didn't respond to anything I asked you.

I did actually.

You claimed that founding fathers restricted immigration and I pointed out that this was false.

You claimed that founding fathers allowed slavery and I replied the issue was a bit more complicated than that.

You ask me who were the people on the opposite side of the CRA debate, and my reply is the same people who are supporting segregation today, namely college-educated white democrats. The specific terminology they use to justify their beliefs might change, but the substance of those beliefs (racial segregation, mob justice, and various flavors of Marxist nonsense) hasn't.

The founding fathers never intended for this country to be populated with majority non-whites. This isn't debatable.

You claimed that founding fathers allowed slavery and I replied the issue was a bit more complicated than that.

How was it more complicated? They allowed it. Everything is complicated so that is a ridiculous "argument".

You ask me who were the people on the opposite side of the CRA debate, and my reply is the same people who are supporting segregation today

Wait so the woke left and Marxists were running the Jim Crow South? You are delusional. Today I learned that George Wallace was the same as the college educated democrats today just the "terms" are different.

...and there it is, the agenda you were trying slip by under the mask.

You ask how is it more complicated? My answer is for the same reason it's rude and/or to ask anti-natalists why they're posting manifestos on the internet instead of huffing nitrogen or overdosing on heroine. Ditto pointing out how Joe Biden and the people who vote for him are unusually supportive of murdering baby both in the abstract through support of abortion and in the particular through financial support for Hamas.

You ask if woke Marxists were running the Jim crow south? My answer is that this is a trick question. Would the folks running the Jim crow south have called themselves "woke Marxists" at the time? No of course not. Were they the same sort of people (and in some cases literally the same people) who identify as "woke Marxists" today? Yes, absolutely. The Black Bloc and the KKK are the same picture with a minor palette swap.

So just so I'm understanding this correctly, the KKK, George Wallace, and David Duke are/were essentially woke leftists and Marxists? And the people running the Jim Crow South and supporting the KKK were more or less motivated by the same ideology as The Black Bloc and Antifa? Is this what you are saying?

Yes.

I'm saying that the dipshits donning white hoods to smash windows in minority neighborhoods back in 1920 are largely indistinguishable from the dipshits donning black hoodies to smash windows in minority neighborhoods in 2020. They're the same picture.

Okay so when did the KKK officially become part of the Left in your view? When it was founded by Confederate veterans or did it become woke left later? Or were Confederate soldiers also woke leftists and this predates the Civil War?

From the founding.

As I have argued on numerous priors occasions the split between left and right is best understood as a religious schism between the followers of Rousseau and Hobbes. Hobbes may have won the war, but that doesn't necessarily translate into winning the site.

More comments

Were the people on the opposite side of this debate? The woke left? Were the woke left the ones beating black protesters here

You're asking if the people who wanted segregation back then are different from the same as people who want segregation now? Why would an affirmative answer be in any way surprising?

He thinks they are the same

You ask me who were the people on the opposite side of the CRA debate, and my reply is the same people who are supporting segregation today, namely college-educated white democrats. The specific terminology they use to justify their beliefs might change, but the substance of those beliefs (racial segregation, mob justice, and various flavors of Marxist nonsense) hasn't.

Sorry, I switcharood the negations in my brain somewhere along the line of writing that sentence. Yes, it seems to make sense to me that people who want segregation now will have the same ideology as the people who wanted segregation back then.

So the "woke" left today full of non-white people has the same ideology as the people running the Jim Crow South?

I'm pretty sure the generations don't overlap to that extent, so in the strictest sense: no. On the other hand, how am I supposed to tell the difference between people who want separate facilities for people of color, and people who want separate facilities for people of color?

It's pretty disingenuous to compare what modern progressives are doing (which I hate btw) to previous racial policies in the South.

I disagree.

I do not find the similarities to be coincidental nor inconsequential. To me it seems reasonably obvious that the sort of person who would have identified as a "Social Democrat" or "National Socialist" back in the day would be the sort who identifies as "woke" or "progressive" today.

I think it's pretty disingenuous to act like the similarities are coincidental and inconsequential, but that's not much of discussion, that's just tossing insults at each other.

They are doing a giga DR3 and implying the American Right and Red Tribe were apparently never racist. I'm just trying to get them to admit that's what they are doing.

they also became less inclined to vote for the party of Woodrow Wilson and George Wallace.

I know this is kinda tangential to your point, but George Wallace found Jesus, had a change of heart on race issues, and managed to talk the NAACP into endorsing his run for Alabama governor in the 80's. Kind of a microcosm of the south's racial progress.

I knew that he had a "come to Jesus moment" later in life and had approached both John Lewis and Vivian Jones asking for forgiveness but I did not know that the NAACP had endorsed his final run for governor. TIL.

Edit: Also goes to support my repeated contention that history/reality is under no obligation to conform to expectations.

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