naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
I saw this right before reading @Stefferi claiming that "the right (apart from the explicit Nazis, of course) and at least parts of the center-left immediately smells blood in the water and starts trawling the social medias for any far-left comments that either are pro-Hamas or can be presented that way"
Not really sure what else to say. Just seems like whatever happens someone will be playing the "deflect, minimize, Republicans Pounce" game to get people to ignore it.
Yes, there are far-left comments that are pro-Hamas. However, from what I've seen in online discussions, they also get a large amount of pushback, including from fellow leftists, in ways that violent "decolonization" rhetoric would have not received, previously. It feels like a vibe shift; of course the thing about vibe shifts is that they're very hard to quantify.
I've also observed, for a long time, that there exists a right-wing tendency to use Israel/Palestine conflict and related accusations of antisemism for tit-for-tat attacks on the Left for avenging left-wing attacks on right (justified or not) for racism. This includes a tendency to vastly exaggerate the reach and importance of anti-semitic attitudes on the Left, including implying that any and all condemnations of Israel, the occupation etc. are antisemism. Again, this is not something that is limited to this conflict but a longer observation. If that's something I've noticed, that's something I'm going to say, "Republicans pounce" memery notwithstanding. Weakmanning, guilt by association etc. are basic rhetorical tactics used by all sides, after all.
As I linked elsewhere, probably the most high-profile example of pushback was this. Your particular linked example noted that the person in question had been placed on administrative leave.
The vibe shift is currently harder to quantify due to the extraordinary harshness of the Israeli response balancing the scales, but I'd still say that "decolonization" rhetoric has taken a hit (see eg this), that an Israeli campaign against Gaza of this magnitude would have left to considerably bigger left-wing counter-reaction if it hadn't been for 10/7, and that, yes, the right has smelled blood in the water and is painting with a wide brush to tar a much larger crowd with the "pro-Hamas", antisemitic image than the actual pro-Hamas anti-semitic fraction.
I really don't know why it would be so controversial to say that the Right does that. It's a faction in the culture war! That's what factions in the culture war do! Am I supposed to go with the assumption that the Right is just too damn gentlemanly to not use such a tactic when an opportunity arises?
I'm slightly agreed with you there seems to be a vibeshift among the academic left. It's coming at the same time as a lot of emboldened explicit antisemitism from non-institutional actors of course, and it remains to be seen if it sticks. But e.g. our local Greens party put out a statement that was a lot more equivocal and both-sides-ist than I would normally expect from them (they have long championed BDS and routinely call Israel an apartheid state, for example).
it is a problem because you can always find someone who is associated with cause X but also has unsavory opinion Y. of course it seems like its fine to use these tactics to smear other causes.
Nick Reimer, president of the faculty union at the University of Sydney in Australia,
The union representing teaching assistants and part-time instructors at McMaster University, CUPE local 3906
I have no qualms about tarring that entire university and all of CUPE with the same brush. If they didn't want those people speaking for them, they shouldn't have made them leaders.
Is the article supposed to go against the claim that right-wingers will trawl the social media for any and all pro-Hamas far left comments in situations like this? Because that's certainly the impression you get when you include operators like "Sarah Shahid, freelancer for Now Toronto and Spring magazine" and "At Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo, Ontario, assistant professor of social work Dr. Jessica Hutchison".
No, it's supposed to go against the implication that it's (only) unfairly highlighting crazies. When you're representing thousands of staff at an organization with an endowment in the billions of dollars, you're a genuine public figure and your actions are newsworthy.
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Notes -
I saw this right before reading @Stefferi claiming that "the right (apart from the explicit Nazis, of course) and at least parts of the center-left immediately smells blood in the water and starts trawling the social medias for any far-left comments that either are pro-Hamas or can be presented that way"
Not really sure what else to say. Just seems like whatever happens someone will be playing the "deflect, minimize, Republicans Pounce" game to get people to ignore it.
Well, how am I supposed to respond?
Yes, there are far-left comments that are pro-Hamas. However, from what I've seen in online discussions, they also get a large amount of pushback, including from fellow leftists, in ways that violent "decolonization" rhetoric would have not received, previously. It feels like a vibe shift; of course the thing about vibe shifts is that they're very hard to quantify.
I've also observed, for a long time, that there exists a right-wing tendency to use Israel/Palestine conflict and related accusations of antisemism for tit-for-tat attacks on the Left for avenging left-wing attacks on right (justified or not) for racism. This includes a tendency to vastly exaggerate the reach and importance of anti-semitic attitudes on the Left, including implying that any and all condemnations of Israel, the occupation etc. are antisemism. Again, this is not something that is limited to this conflict but a longer observation. If that's something I've noticed, that's something I'm going to say, "Republicans pounce" memery notwithstanding. Weakmanning, guilt by association etc. are basic rhetorical tactics used by all sides, after all.
Hi, curious if you have further thoughts about this given the events of the last few weeks, especially things like this: https://twitter.com/RachelJessWolff/status/1719901617305084373
Have you seen any pushback from fellow leftists? Can you link examples of any?
As I linked elsewhere, probably the most high-profile example of pushback was this. Your particular linked example noted that the person in question had been placed on administrative leave.
The vibe shift is currently harder to quantify due to the extraordinary harshness of the Israeli response balancing the scales, but I'd still say that "decolonization" rhetoric has taken a hit (see eg this), that an Israeli campaign against Gaza of this magnitude would have left to considerably bigger left-wing counter-reaction if it hadn't been for 10/7, and that, yes, the right has smelled blood in the water and is painting with a wide brush to tar a much larger crowd with the "pro-Hamas", antisemitic image than the actual pro-Hamas anti-semitic fraction.
I really don't know why it would be so controversial to say that the Right does that. It's a faction in the culture war! That's what factions in the culture war do! Am I supposed to go with the assumption that the Right is just too damn gentlemanly to not use such a tactic when an opportunity arises?
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No one needs only look at major population centers where large amounts of people support genocide (eg Sydney, Chicago, London) of the Israelis.
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I'm slightly agreed with you there seems to be a vibeshift among the academic left. It's coming at the same time as a lot of emboldened explicit antisemitism from non-institutional actors of course, and it remains to be seen if it sticks. But e.g. our local Greens party put out a statement that was a lot more equivocal and both-sides-ist than I would normally expect from them (they have long championed BDS and routinely call Israel an apartheid state, for example).
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it is a problem because you can always find someone who is associated with cause X but also has unsavory opinion Y. of course it seems like its fine to use these tactics to smear other causes.
There's a difference between finding "someone", and finding leaders in large and prestigious organizations.
From here:
I have no qualms about tarring that entire university and all of CUPE with the same brush. If they didn't want those people speaking for them, they shouldn't have made them leaders.
Well I didn't vote for them.
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Is the article supposed to go against the claim that right-wingers will trawl the social media for any and all pro-Hamas far left comments in situations like this? Because that's certainly the impression you get when you include operators like "Sarah Shahid, freelancer for Now Toronto and Spring magazine" and "At Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo, Ontario, assistant professor of social work Dr. Jessica Hutchison".
No, it's supposed to go against the implication that it's (only) unfairly highlighting crazies. When you're representing thousands of staff at an organization with an endowment in the billions of dollars, you're a genuine public figure and your actions are newsworthy.
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