naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
A pro-Palestine rally in Sydney has featured the same kind of naked antisemitism that is increasingly common at these sorts of events - in this case including chants of "fuck the Jews".
However, unlike America which has a first amendment to protect offensive speech, Australia is not so squeamish about cracking down on wrongthink. Conservatives tried (and failed) some years back to change the federal law that makes it illegal to "offend or insult" a person on the basis of race, and state-based racial vilification laws carry criminal penalties. States recently have been banning the swastika and other Nazi symbols too.
So, how does this get applied when the racial vilification is coming from Labor-voting Muslims rather than One Nation-voting whites? Well, we got an indication today:
NSW premier Chris Minns said the police’s decision to allow the protest was “operational”.
NSW police have launched an investigation and the premier warned anyone caught taking part in “racial vilification or incitement of hatred or incitement of violence” would be charged. He described the scenes at the Opera House as “abhorrent”.
“To have some people celebrate atrocious indiscriminate killing and kidnapping in Israel is appalling,” he said.
“This is the opposite of the dynamic multicultural community we want in NSW and Australia. Racial epithets were thrown at the Jewish community by the mere fact that they were members of the Jewish community which is shocking and abusive and potentially a crime.”
To be clear, I supported the unsuccessful move to amend the Racial Discrimination Act and generally think that expressing odious views should not be illegal. But I'm also a big believer in the even handed application of law, and given that the country decided to reject the argument that "people have a right to be bigots" (as Brandis put it), I'm going to give myself a pass to enjoy watching some of the less pleasant parts of society get an involuntary legal education.
After seeing those Khaazar Milkers, I'm sympathetic. Unless you also intend to tell me that the "gas the Jews" chanting alongside it wasn't intended to be an invitation to huff nitrous, an authentic Australian pastime if I've heard one.
Honestly, one of the primary benefits of the US seceding from British influence by force was a ground-up reconstruction of its legal system and implicit constitution. While the average Westerner who doesn't think too hard might look at comparable standards of living in the Commonwealth and the US, they have very different presumptions underlying their judicial system and tolerance for political incorrectness.
Walterodim
Only equals speak the truth, that’s my thought on’t
AshLael 1yr ago
The question I keep coming back to when I see these pro-Palestinians-murdering-Jews rallies is, "why are these people here?". That's my instinctual response to seeing this in New York, Toronto, Sidney, really any nice, polite, Anglo-founded civilization. Don't get me wrong, I understand why they want to be here, there's all sorts of material goods to be gained by moving to nice, polite, Anglo-founded civilizations. What I mean is how did we wind up with a set of policies that allowed immigration of people that were going to bring their old ethnic hatreds and import them to nice, polite, Anglo civilizations. I can't really begrudge black Americans for holding a grudge over American history and I certainly will grant that Native Americans have a point or two. But why the hell did we add a set of people with Middle Eastern grievances to celebrate the barbaric murder of Jews?
This is, of course, rhetorical and I am familiar with the history of immigration in these countries, but I just can't get past that being my sentiment every time. Whether people have a right to be bigots or not, Sydney didn't need to invite them in to do on the steps of the Opera House. The people that want to engage in desert barbarism should be doing so in said desert, not in Times Square.
Many Irish-Americans supported the IRA, and indeed one can imagine, Native Americans complaining about why these Anglos came here and brought all their nonsense from the Old World, with their Protestants and Catholics and Monarchists and so on.
You're starting from a premise that Anglos didn't bring their grievances with them, and I don't think that is clearly true. In fact the truth is, I think everywhere we go, (people in general) we always bring our grievances with us. From Puritan settlers to Quakers and on, you can see those grievances impact on today. Why do you think PA has such restrictive liquor laws compated to say Texas?
We can just over a long enough period, replace our old grievances with new ones that better fit our new situation. It just takes time.
Give it a minute and just like Irish-Americans complaining more about blacks in Boston, or Polacks somewhere else, everyone will get proper new grievances against the people next door instead. Yes, yes Israel is bad, but have you seen that they want to put a half way house just down from the mosque?
Walterodim
Only equals speak the truth, that’s my thought on’t
SSCReader 1yr ago
Many Irish-Americans supported the IRA
Yeah, and it wasn't great!
Native Americans complaining about why these Anglos came here and brought all their nonsense from the Old World, with their Protestants and Catholics and Monarchists and so on.
As above, I think the Natives have something of a point. If nothing else, I surely wouldn't be inclined to tell them that it's actually pretty normal and that they're a bunch of bigots for not welcoming it. The parallels obviously stop making sense in short order, but I think we can confidently say that the squabbles of Europeans being brought to Americans shores sucked for the people that were the previous residents of those shores.
Which is interesting considering how people openly talk about genociding Palestinians. They aren't really shown as humans and politicians openly talk about how they various war crimes should be commited against them. Funny how talking about turning Gaza into glass isn't hate speach but we aren't allowed to criticise the people of Israel. I hardly think the police would crack down on fuck the Russians at a pro Ukraine rally.
Right wingers get kicked off twitter for proposing mild measures to reduce immigration. Israelis can cheer on mass bombing of Palestinians, blocking food and electricity to civilians and demolishing their homes and churches without consequence.
Could you show me some examples of politicians saying what you believe to the the equivalent here?
I’ve certainly seen things about bombing Gaza, but this comes immediately after a terrorist attack, and there is an implied “let/force the civilians to leave”.
Here's a politician in the Israeli legislature from Netanyahu's party Likud calling for Israel to use their nuclear weapons rather than ground forces. "Doomsday weapons" is the thinly veiled euphemism Israelis often use to refer to their officially unacknowledged but open secret nuclear arsenal.
Jericho Missile! Jericho Missile! Strategic alert. before considering the introduction of forces.
Doomsday weapon! This is my opinion.
May God preserve all our strength
My views largely align with yours. I wish Australia had true freedom of speech backed in our Constitution. Alas, looks like I'll have to settle for your rules applied fairly your rules selectively applied to benefit you.
This is a great example of selective enforcement and Who Whom. White nationalists would never be allowed to undertake the same protest. Particularly without filing a 'Form 1' with NSW Police (or Notice of Intention to Hold a Public Assembly) as was the case with the Pro-Palestinian rally.
Beyond this, this type of ethnic tension is endemic in multi-cultural societies. As I said recently regarding the Sikh assassination in Canada, political agitators who cannot leave their old countries' grudges at the door when emigrating to the West should fail the character test and be denied citizenship.
As I said recently regarding the Sikh assassination in Canada, political agitators who cannot leave their old countries' grudges at the door when emigrating to the West should fail the character test and be denied citizenship.
This is going to fail the disparate impact test - and it'll probably count as antisemitic too given how many jews are Israeli partisans. I happen to agree with you that it is a good idea, but you're not going to be able to get the left to agree to a policy that effectively translates to mostly allowing white and asian immigrants.
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Notes -
A pro-Palestine rally in Sydney has featured the same kind of naked antisemitism that is increasingly common at these sorts of events - in this case including chants of "fuck the Jews".
However, unlike America which has a first amendment to protect offensive speech, Australia is not so squeamish about cracking down on wrongthink. Conservatives tried (and failed) some years back to change the federal law that makes it illegal to "offend or insult" a person on the basis of race, and state-based racial vilification laws carry criminal penalties. States recently have been banning the swastika and other Nazi symbols too.
So, how does this get applied when the racial vilification is coming from Labor-voting Muslims rather than One Nation-voting whites? Well, we got an indication today:
To be clear, I supported the unsuccessful move to amend the Racial Discrimination Act and generally think that expressing odious views should not be illegal. But I'm also a big believer in the even handed application of law, and given that the country decided to reject the argument that "people have a right to be bigots" (as Brandis put it), I'm going to give myself a pass to enjoy watching some of the less pleasant parts of society get an involuntary legal education.
After seeing those Khaazar Milkers, I'm sympathetic. Unless you also intend to tell me that the "gas the Jews" chanting alongside it wasn't intended to be an invitation to huff nitrous, an authentic Australian pastime if I've heard one.
Honestly, one of the primary benefits of the US seceding from British influence by force was a ground-up reconstruction of its legal system and implicit constitution. While the average Westerner who doesn't think too hard might look at comparable standards of living in the Commonwealth and the US, they have very different presumptions underlying their judicial system and tolerance for political incorrectness.
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The question I keep coming back to when I see these pro-Palestinians-murdering-Jews rallies is, "why are these people here?". That's my instinctual response to seeing this in New York, Toronto, Sidney, really any nice, polite, Anglo-founded civilization. Don't get me wrong, I understand why they want to be here, there's all sorts of material goods to be gained by moving to nice, polite, Anglo-founded civilizations. What I mean is how did we wind up with a set of policies that allowed immigration of people that were going to bring their old ethnic hatreds and import them to nice, polite, Anglo civilizations. I can't really begrudge black Americans for holding a grudge over American history and I certainly will grant that Native Americans have a point or two. But why the hell did we add a set of people with Middle Eastern grievances to celebrate the barbaric murder of Jews?
This is, of course, rhetorical and I am familiar with the history of immigration in these countries, but I just can't get past that being my sentiment every time. Whether people have a right to be bigots or not, Sydney didn't need to invite them in to do on the steps of the Opera House. The people that want to engage in desert barbarism should be doing so in said desert, not in Times Square.
Many Irish-Americans supported the IRA, and indeed one can imagine, Native Americans complaining about why these Anglos came here and brought all their nonsense from the Old World, with their Protestants and Catholics and Monarchists and so on.
You're starting from a premise that Anglos didn't bring their grievances with them, and I don't think that is clearly true. In fact the truth is, I think everywhere we go, (people in general) we always bring our grievances with us. From Puritan settlers to Quakers and on, you can see those grievances impact on today. Why do you think PA has such restrictive liquor laws compated to say Texas?
We can just over a long enough period, replace our old grievances with new ones that better fit our new situation. It just takes time.
Give it a minute and just like Irish-Americans complaining more about blacks in Boston, or Polacks somewhere else, everyone will get proper new grievances against the people next door instead. Yes, yes Israel is bad, but have you seen that they want to put a half way house just down from the mosque?
Yeah, and it wasn't great!
As above, I think the Natives have something of a point. If nothing else, I surely wouldn't be inclined to tell them that it's actually pretty normal and that they're a bunch of bigots for not welcoming it. The parallels obviously stop making sense in short order, but I think we can confidently say that the squabbles of Europeans being brought to Americans shores sucked for the people that were the previous residents of those shores.
They certainly did, and it does suck, but complaining about 1 group doing it when every other group does the same is an isolated demand for rigor.
To be clear, it is not good. But it is entirely normal. Its not about Anglos and Middle Easterners, its about people.
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Which is interesting considering how people openly talk about genociding Palestinians. They aren't really shown as humans and politicians openly talk about how they various war crimes should be commited against them. Funny how talking about turning Gaza into glass isn't hate speach but we aren't allowed to criticise the people of Israel. I hardly think the police would crack down on fuck the Russians at a pro Ukraine rally.
Right wingers get kicked off twitter for proposing mild measures to reduce immigration. Israelis can cheer on mass bombing of Palestinians, blocking food and electricity to civilians and demolishing their homes and churches without consequence.
Could you show me some examples of politicians saying what you believe to the the equivalent here?
I’ve certainly seen things about bombing Gaza, but this comes immediately after a terrorist attack, and there is an implied “let/force the civilians to leave”.
Here's a politician in the Israeli legislature from Netanyahu's party Likud calling for Israel to use their nuclear weapons rather than ground forces. "Doomsday weapons" is the thinly veiled euphemism Israelis often use to refer to their officially unacknowledged but open secret nuclear arsenal.
https://twitter.com/TallyGotliv/status/1711426284322996613
Twitter has decided not to translate that for me.
It’s certainly a strong opinion.
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My views largely align with yours. I wish Australia had true freedom of speech backed in our Constitution. Alas, looks like I'll have to settle for
your rules applied fairlyyour rules selectively applied to benefit you.This is a great example of selective enforcement and Who Whom. White nationalists would never be allowed to undertake the same protest. Particularly without filing a 'Form 1' with NSW Police (or Notice of Intention to Hold a Public Assembly) as was the case with the Pro-Palestinian rally.
Beyond this, this type of ethnic tension is endemic in multi-cultural societies. As I said recently regarding the Sikh assassination in Canada, political agitators who cannot leave their old countries' grudges at the door when emigrating to the West should fail the character test and be denied citizenship.
This is going to fail the disparate impact test - and it'll probably count as antisemitic too given how many jews are Israeli partisans. I happen to agree with you that it is a good idea, but you're not going to be able to get the left to agree to a policy that effectively translates to mostly allowing white and asian immigrants.
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