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Notes -
Why?
Dodging the entire moral philosophy question for the moment, civilizational and economic competence are important for every goal. Want water that doesn't give you deadly diseases? Want to not have violent crime? Want to treat diseases so a large percent of your population doesn't die young? Want your smartest to be poets and physicists instead of farmers and street hagglers? Certainly some of these are related to morality.
If the Palestinians simply gave in, stopped all forms of resistance, and accepted annexation and (likely temporary) second class citizenship, they'd be much better off within a decade. And that 'better off'ness includes fewer deaths from disease, greater happiness, etc. The human rights violations don't really change that, and they're ongoing anyway, and you can try to fix them if you want, but either way self's solution is still better.
Would they really?
After seeing the Israeli attitudes towards Palestinians I have a hard time believing this - and I have an even harder time believing that someone on the political left would find having a European colony create an explicit underclass of brown people to be acceptable in any way. Given the actual statements and revealed preferences of Israeli figures, I think the Palestinians would actually be substantially worse off in this situation.
If only we had a control group of Israeli arabs to compare the living standards of against Gaza.
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No one is disputing the value of civilization and technological improvement. What I'm disputing is the idea that they are so important as to offer a moral offset when we ask if a civilization is immoral on the whole.
Sure, Israel is net immoral. Probably everyone is net immoral, there are always ways to be better, and always horrible mistakes one's making at some scale. You can't find a country that isn't killing its inhabitants with obesity, addictive drugs, or something. Although I don't think 'preventing-harm-to-the-downtrodden' is the pinnacle of one's duty in one's life, it applies either way - the Great Man who only accomplishes part of his potential is, in the same sense, net immoral.
I don't see the practical relevance, though. Yeah, Israel clearly should treat Palestinians better, whether for humanitarian or self-interested reasons. Palestinians should also stop attacking Israel. Every state of relevance, including the US, conducts pointless conflicts. Yet we should still, perhaps, be able to apply terms like 'respect' to these states. And then, yeah, I respect Israel a lot more than Palestine, a lot more than most other states.
The problem is that of intention. It's one thing to say that there are inevitable costs to, say, policing and some people will end up being hurt when they are. But it's an entirely different thing to say that we shouldn't try to prevent those from happening in the first place.
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But Israel hasn't been (seriously) talking about annexation (expect for particular territories designed to render West Bank into unviable enclaves) or any sort of a citizenship, first-class or second-class or whatever, for Palestinians.
I agree, the particulars of the situation don't really point to any good options. I'm trying to provide examples of why being okay with a semi-ethnostate or human rights violations is fine if it comes along with more important things.
Are you okay with this argument being applied to a hypothetical white American or white European ethnostate?
Yes. This would apply to, for instance, African nations being materially better off without decolonization, even if it meant still being ruled by somewhat-racist policies.
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An existence as a peaceful lower middle income protectorate of Israel would afford Palestinians a relatively decent standard of living by non-petrostate Arab standards, the chance to continue practicing most of their religion and culture, and the ability to live decent enough lives like the rest of the global middle.
The difference is, I think, that as @Pasha says, this is an extremely honor based culture even by non Hajnali standards. They are, for now, too proud. And let’s be real, their treatment has been undignified. They have just cause for war, and though they do not for the kind of savage war crimes on display yesterday, they’re hardly surprising either.
And so the only options are to crush their will and to humiliate them utterly, or to give in, it’s hard to conceive of a third option.
I think there is a resurgence of anti-Hamas sentiment because at this point in time Israel has not yet learned how to be multicultural. And I think we are going to be part of the throes of that transformation, which must take place. Israel is not going to be the monolithic society they once were in the last century. Palestinians are going to be at the centre of that. It’s a huge transformation for Israel to make. They are now going into a multicultural mode and Palestinians will be resented because of our leading role. But without that leading role and without that transformation, Israel will not survive. ~ Barbayla Spectaj
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I am tagged so I feel like adding something. I think most Western-oriented people (including me) has had the experience of an incredibly visceral reaction yesterday to the images of gunned men of another culture violating the family homes, taking away women and leaving death and destruction behind them. We all felt this because they could be our houses and they could be our women. Israeli politicians are talking about basically genocide and the Air Force has been dropping a bomb per minute ever since. This is how the Palestinians have felt at least once a month for 4 generations at this point. Their entire culture is a coping mechanism to deal with this extreme constant humiliation. I can't begin to fathom how childish someone has to be to suggest that THIS MAN just surrender to the killers of his child in exchange for becoming their low-wage servant.
The alternative to surrendering to those killers is almost certain death. I mean, what do you say to the surviving (American) Indian in 1880 whose tribe has been mostly killed in conflict with settlers / the government? To run into the bullets?
Surviving in many cases meant the opportunity for more children, descendants, a genetic legacy, life, the things that all people intrinsically seek. But then perhaps this is a difference in kind, after all Jews lived at the mercy of others, often humiliated, for many centuries, so perhaps we cannot understand those for whom death is always better than a life on one’s knees.
Palestinians haven’t surrendered for 80+ years at this point and their genetical material is passing along quite successfully.
Israel isn’t omnipotent. It left Gaza before back when it had half the population, Hamas-Iran axis didn’t exist and the US was the absolute world hegemon, unquestionably committed to Israel. There weren’t 100 Jewish hostages in Gaza.
None of these conditions are true anymore. It’s a much richer and casualty sensitive country. Cheap drones are leading to a revolution in asymmetric warfare. US is distancing itself from Middle East.
Israel can inflict incredible casualties in Gaza. But can they really pacify the region? Or even beat hamas without leading to a much more radical faction taking over? I have serious doubts. And as long as Palestinians persist, all it takes for them is one victory at some point in the future.
Sadly, cheap drones could make wholesale violence only ever more unavoidable. You’re completely correct, as a situation it becomes ever more desperate for Israel, the strategic options narrow towards only one viable gambit.
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The way things look like from here to me, it is not Israel's military weakness that has been allowing Palestinians to persist, but the fact that turning countries into ravaged parking lots is just not done today.
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I think from a Western orientated POV it feels like a rather absurd situation in which our position of power is being couched in almost absurd levels of coddling for people from certain cultures, compared to historical norms (and what they'd do to us if in a similar position of supremacy) and that the whole thing feels like increasingly there's no coherent reason to be so utterly indulgent aside from pure bleeding-heart sympathy.
I would recommend people with such sentiment to remember this is exactly how Russians felt two years ago. Or the US multiple times in the recent memory. Sometimes your seemingly weak enemies can make some powerful friends or exploit structural imbalances to deny you your goals long enough that it turns into a defeat.
Most of those were self-inflicted issues for the superpowers in question, and it's very 'we are establishing norms of conduct which, whilst it'd be nice if everybody followed, it doesn't seem the current losers would follow if they were on top.'
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I fully realize this comment might get me in trouble and it is ad-hominem and "tasteless". I will delete it if mods say so and apologize. It is even embarrassing if I got my basic assumption wrong. Here we go though..
I strongly suspect the real reason is because he is Indian, and the said occasional human rights violations are against Muslims. HBD is a thin veneer used to justify seeing human beings as bugs to be crushed because they aren't technologically advanced enough. Online high-caste Indian men seem to be highly susceptible to such viewpoints, probably because of their experience of living in India of all places, the pinnacle of HDB inequality.
Better than speculating "He only believes that for tribal reasons" would be to... ask him. Yes, we generally dislike people lobbing identity-based arguments at each other. We also prefer you don't delete posts. Whether or not you want to apologize is up to you.
That is a fair point. I will do so the next time. I am quicker to assume such things when people are low key advocating for ethnic cleansing.
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I am a South Asian Muslim (technically outside the caste system, which is a Hindu thing, but in reality there is an informal system that everyone knows), and I also
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Bruh. I remember you making the same completely unfounded claim about me before, which I immediately pushed back against.
I'm secularly irreligious, largely hating most religion equally, albeit a few annoy me enough to earn more of my scorn. Muslims, Hindu fundamentalists, roughly about as bad as I'm concerned, even if the latter are currently in power.
I'm sure you've seen me ~politely squabble with the local Mormons and miscellaneous denominations of Christianity here too.
On a more forgivable error, I didn't come to believe in HBD while living in India, or at least not while observing Indians growing up.
Living in an upper-middle class bubble tends to blur everything together, especially when I'm unusually bad at figuring out caste from surnames, and I didn't even know what caste I was until I was around 19 (it's not high at all, just a cut above people who get affirmative action in fact, woe is me that I had to get into med school the hard way).
Now, actual med school, where I had to restrain endless fury that I had ended up shunted off to a backwater while my Scheduled Class classmates, if they didn't gotten upgraded a few days later to a far better one, had ranks twice as bad I did in the competitive exam, while being visibly worse at things.. Yeah, that'll radicalize you, or at least make you listen when the oldies mumble when not in public. Huh, seems like they were on to something after all.
I hope you remember this time, not that it really matters.
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Err, it's the
entirerest of my comment.No, I mean why do you endorse a position in which technology and civilization have such value that they can balance out moral obligations? Most people would say that morality comes first, always. In a sense, that's precisely what morality is, the rules that hold utmost importance and must be obeyed should there ever be any conflict. You don't even dispute the idea that what Israel is doing is immoral.
You say that technological innovation and civilization creation are aspects in which Israel does so well that its immoral actions can be ignored. Would you say the same if the costs or consequences of those actions fell on you or those you cared about? If the cost for Israel's success was the death of your parents, your wife, your children, or even you, would you still make the same argument?
Now, you could argue that your human responses are irrational. Feelings are stupid and gay, after all, there's no reason your chemical reaction to seeing your family killed by a drone should dictate the actual morality you hold to. But talk is cheap. I've debated people who struck me as incapable of separating the reality we all inhabit from any hypothetical world I proposed. It's easy to bite bullets about what you would accept when the only one biting actual bullets are your adversaries.
Top level post on this coming soon from yours truly. Stay tuned to the next episode of
Dragon Ball ZTheMotte.Truly he has obtained great powers since rising. I eagerly anticipate the next gospel.
Oh dear, I seem to be gathering apostles... Make it end mom, I'm not the Messiah, I'm a very naughty boy...
Lmao, why not both?! And hey, you can't rise from the dead and not expect to gather disciples. Come on now, you really should know better. ;P
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I would say it's largely because my own idiosyncratic morality can differ quite significantly from the norm.
I'd go so far as to say that people who are 100% on board with all the values preached around them are NPCs, which is what I gave as my definition for the term when someone asked in a CW thread a while back. Seemed to match up with most of the answers too.
This is a deontological take, and I'm a consequentialist.
Such a naive approach runs into the immediate roadblock of someone pointing out how you resolve the Kantian imperatives of not lying and not letting someone come to harm when an murderer knocks on your door and asks where you friend is. (Or the SS comes for the Jews in your annex, if we're to stay close to the topic at hand)
Keep resolving the edge cases, blatant conflicts and order of operations, and you have a dumbed down version of utilitarianism/consequentialism. Reality isn't so kind that it always gives you one option unreproachably better than the other.
(Some suggest that Deontology can also be considered Utilitarianism for Dummies, or people who don't trust themselves to think too hard, which is close enough, we don't have infinite computing power in our skulls and some heuristics are good enough to use most of the time. I'm also not a Benthamian Utilitarian/Effective Altruist, I just model myself as having a utility function)
There are plenty of people who proclaim democracy as valuable in-of-itself, and point to downstream observations about socio-economic output as a justification for the more hard-headed.
Well, I'll happily sacrifice some democracy for a lot of wealth, and I would head to Singapore right away if they didn't only take the top 0.1% of doctors from India.
Further, what comes when we make an AGI (which is obedient instead of killing us immediately)? It takes chutzpah to think that humans should be the ones micromanaging it, instead of asking it to examine our goals and desires and figure out what's best for us, even if we enforce a requirement to let us decide in the end.
I would take being utterly politically powerless in a post-scarcity society over being the ruler of a state like Palestine. And you know what, that's the same dilemma they face. Surrender their useless autonomy, already well compromised, and accept Israeli rule, which very much wants to be kind, or else they'd have leveled the strip.
As for Human Rights?
Spit. They're a contingent outcome of immense global wealth where we can agree to pretend that they descend from the heavens or emerge fully formed from our temples, not pure Logos that we stray from at risk of eternal damnation.
In other words, they're nice to have as Schelling Points, not sacred as far as I'm concerned. And eventually every single one ends up riddled with exceptions for the public good and whatever the bored judge or civil servant feels like that afternoon.
Nope. I wouldn't say that if that was the price, but once again, Palestinians don't face that tradeoff either. They could diminish their risk of drone strikes killing them and their loved ones to ~0% by not doing everything in their limited power to piss off their more powerful neighbors.
Or condoning and celebrating those who do, to an extent.
You can have mine for free, I'm commenting here because I like to, not because I have a Substack or Patreon to shill (maybe later). I'm sure I'm inconsequential in the greater scheme, and I've made my peace with that long ago, as long as things keep improving.
If the modal Palestinian was that pragmatic, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I understand that morality is hard. That's not the same as saying that the creation of technology or civilization is itself a moral good.
You're letting implementation dictate the value of the theoretical.
But then you're also okay if Israel happens to, intentionally or with reckless disregard, kill Palestinians who do precisely that because the Israelis think this particular person or family are terrorists or criminals. After all, these are the "occasional human rights violations" you're talking about.
Meaning that your statements on any moral issue are contingent upon whether you have political or social power, correct?
I deny that objective morality even exists. Or that it's a even a coherent concept!
As far as my personal subjective morality goes, I don't find it particularly difficult, not as much as say, quantum mechanics or memorizing every single fucking interaction in medicine I am expected to learn for the next set of exams I need to give.
Not that I let moral relativism stop me from being a moral chauvinist, why, yes, I prefer my own morals, and I think society would be better off adopting it.
Whether the creation of a technology is a moral good or not obviously depends on the technology, even for an unabashed transhumanist? Gain of function research? Hell no. Eliminating mosquitoes with gene drives? Hell yes. AI? Depends, will it save us or kill us? In expectation I slightly lean towards the former, even if I worry about the latter.
Civilization is a social technology in itself, us bootstrapping from Monke to apotheosis.
Of course the net sum of all technological advances since fire has been overwhelmingly positive, and if Ted K wants to disagree, sucks to be dead I guess. May we develop the technology to solve that particular problem soon.
And?
I hereby declare that it's a Human Right to be free from the tyranny of gravity, if not Israeli occupation. Look, I don't float, at least not without a rocket.
What is a Right to Internet Access without the internet? Healthcare, without at least 20th century medicine?
Ain't nobody perfect. It's still the smart decision, even if the dice or Mossad roll against you.
A little? Not that I would even frame it as a bad thing, per se. It should be clear by now that I consider morality to be quite contingent on the circumstances one finds one's self in.
You sure? I just tried it and cracked levitating. Maybe you aren't believing strongly enough.
Jokes aside, I think 'objective' morality is an incoherent concept, because objectivity is an incoherent concept! Jordan Peterson has some great discussions on how everything bottoms out to morality - basically related to relevance realization a la John Vervaeke and how there are so many facts out there (like impossible numbers) that you have to have some a priori framework to get them down to a manageable size to make decisions on.
There's also Hume's is-ought gap, if you're looking for the steelmanned version of what I think @drmanhattan16 is trying to argue.
Shoots your balloon down. One at a time, because I don't particularly want to kill you.
Maybe my chakras will stop being so lazy, if I could levitate it would save me a lot of pain in the literal ass and legs.
Hah well I appreciate your forbearance.
Don't worry about your chakras man, you just gotta believe in rights. Everyone knows the path of Human Rights will give you a far stronger foundation and easier cycling than the path of Yoga. Duh!
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I said nothing about objective morality.
And why is that itself a moral good?
You understand that we can abstract these things, right? For example, the right to use contemporary means of private messaging. Letters in the past, DMs today.
But you certainly seem to be indifferent to how imperfect they may be.
If the Israelis were having Predator drones (or whatever their equivalent is) bomb a random house in each block every day, would you say that's just "imperfection"? What if they decide to genocide by bullet the Palestinians entirely, but they also promise a cure for cancer?
Because I think it is? So do most people, if they're thinking straight.
Your question makes no sense without that presumption, unless you want a scan of my brain so you tease out the way the neurons fire.
Sure. But the Right To Internet Access was proposed as an addition to the usual for "Free Speech".
Could be better. Could be much worse. I give them a 8/10 for effort.
Hmm.. Harder than it looks, or not intuitively obvious to me. There are apparently 14.3 million Palestinians. ~10 million deaths from cancer a year.
Cancer doesn't usually take people in their prime, I'd know, I treat enough old people in my onco unit. Palestinians are younger than typical, apparently they think having a bunch of kids in a warzone is acceptable where richer Westerners don't.
Even so, let's assume that the average Palestinian killed this way loses 50 years of their lives. Half the people who die of cancer do so above 70, most of the other half in their fifties. Let's be generous and say the average loses 20 years of their lives, this is napkin math.
So, given my timelines for a cure for cancer the old fashioned way, maybe in 10-20 years without AGI, shorter without it..
15.3*50=765
10 * 20 * 10(years)= 2000
If I really cared, then I would adjust for Quality Adjusted Life Years due to the age of the latter population. Population growth, second order effects from 15 million people being killed, the sheer cost of the ridiculous number of missiles needed, it would cheaper to nuke them with a cleanish bomb. Risk of WW3. Yahweh intervening (honestly this one is negligible, he didn't care about the first 6 million did He?)
There you go, I'm ready to sign the form you presumably have ready when the Israelis stop holding out on us, maybe they'll share the schematics of the Jewish Space Lasers while they're being generous. RIP Palestine, but I'll buy some Raytheon stock and iodine pills while you get the pen out. Some Luxottica too, the Palestinian future is so bright that the Israelis need shades!
No, actually, that's not so clear. People may find it valuable, but an argument has to be made that creating a civilization is itself a moral good.
We can use arguments to determine what morality we want to follow even as we acknowledge it's not objective. Not that hard to understand.
You've already made it clear that you would never accept the costs if you had to pay them. It's a damning indication of just how little your stated morality means to you if you would refuse to accept its worst outcomes being applied to you.
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Feel free to enlighten me.
You do realize that much of the repression is almost at the bare minimum necessary for a country of barely 6 million people to monitor several times that number who hate their guts, while living close enough to jog over? Or bike. Or paraglide into a concert and rape the hottest chick who skipped cardio.
The Israelis are not genocidal, despite being victims of one successful genocide in barely living memory, and more that could have plausibly followed if the Arabs had been able to push them into the ocean.
Once again, I beseech you to submit an actual argument regarding why the living conditions of the average Palestinian wouldn't jump, if not to First World standards, something much more respectable, if they didn't use their schools and hospitals to operate an insurgency while using their own populace as shields.
Yeah, they might not be able to vote if they unified, but if you insist using your franchise on bringing Hamas or its sympathizers back into power on the regular, my sympathies are slim.
Edit: For anyone curious, it was a drive by comment accusing me of holding kindergarten grade views about the situation in occupied Palestine, presumably deleted when they worried the mods might notice. They still see deleted comments dawg.
I'll jump in on the side of your interlocutor and just say that while I have massive respect for your hardline consquentialist views (you really play it to the hilt!) I tend to agree that morality has to come first.
Would you not agree that as a technocratic consequentialist, you take on faith things like Scientific Objectivity and Technological Progress as goods? Or of course 'Utility,' although it's such a vaguely defined catchall I'd rather use something like 'virtue.'
"Faith"? What a queer word.
I observe an exponential or even super-exponential growth curve and its visible outcomes, and we're approaching the inflection point. I will cease having "faith" in it when the curves flatten out, our AI no longer improving, our medicine becoming stale.
Until then, I'm here for the ride.
To me the idea of Growth as something that can be judged by us is taken on faith as well. It's hard to articulate what I'm getting at, I'll come back to you once I've refined my understanding better.
In the meantime if we do achieve foom and you merge with the machines, I hope I've built up enough goodwill that you will take me in as the human serf to your machine feudal lord. And maybe some of my loved ones too ;)
Might make an interesting sci-fi premise, at least.
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