This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
You have your timeline confused. He was already under the DVRO before those other crimes occurred. While doing the needful in investigating those other crimes they found evidence for an easy conviction of possession of a firearm while under a court restraining order. His defense attorney is using Bruen to dispute that charge specifically. The case before SCOTUS doesn't actually touch those other charges at all.
To clarify the actual argument is whether or not the federal crime of possessing/acquiring a firearm (that interacts with interstate commerce but that's basically a fig leaf) while under a court issued restraining order is constitutional. This gets abbreviated to whether or not a restraining order with its lower standards of proof and potential one-sided issuance is sufficient and constitutional to deny someone their constitutionally guaranteed right to keep and bear arms. Shorter: restraining orders disarming gun owners constitutional yea/nay?
And his record was clean before the DVRO?
I appreciate the correction, and I guess the argument is that under the proposed system, they could have disarmed him when the DVRO went through? But if his record was not clean prior, that just pushes the question back: the sort of person who fires warning shots over a credit card declined at Whataburger is the sort of person who should not be on the streets at all, and this is probably knowable before he shoots up a Whataburger. Disarming him (How? By who? What if he arms himself again?) but leaving him free is an entirely insufficient response.
As far the record exists in the case yes. Notionally he should have been disarmed when the DVRO was issued. The practical application of that would require the court/police to be aware of existing firearms (the person asking for the order might be aware, the person accused is not exactly incentivized to bring up their ownership) and then proactively disarm (expensive, dangerous) rather than simply ordering it be done. Keeping in mind that the DVRO was under state court and the possession is a federal offence. In some jurisdictions compliance can also be done by storing firearms at a club/FFL rather than having to sell off/surrender them to the police so even verifying compliance with the order has friction.
As for acquiring, the only thing stopping a 4473 from going through after the order is in effect is if the court that issued the order is tied into the state background check system or the national one to catch someone lying on question 21.i or the person under the restraining order answering that question truthfully. (All of question 21 on that form is basically an IQ check or cya documentation used to prosecute if you lie on it and then publicly admit to doing things that conflict with your answers on that form as in the recent case of a rather famous failson.) And of course it's entirely possible to acquire a firearm without a 4473 and in those circumstances the ability to verify that someone is not restricted is rather limited.
To get around that second problem some states have made it illegal to transfer a firearm without a 4473. And the way they enforce that has been... catching someone after the fact with incontrovertible proof they violated that law. That proof being rather difficult because most of those universal background check states still have various exemptions for gifts/inheritance/loans to avoid awkward things like having to stop at an FFL to let your friend "possess" your firearm during a day at the range. Yesterday's reasonable exception is today's loophole.
Excellent overview. DVROs can also be imposed as part of a standard practice whenever someone is charged with a DV crime. Defendants are then placed in an awkward position if they're asked whether they're following the court's order. There was court in Washington state that issued a ridiculously long and thorough decision on this issue, ruling that this type of practice was a clear violation of the defendant's right not to testify against themselves.
I'm in a state with universal background checks, and virtually all the guns that get recovered from crime scenes had been reported stolen eons ago. If the cops find a non-stolen gun, they nominally have the ability to retrace its journey by using the serial number to look up the FFL paperwork. In practice, they tend to find absurdly long gaps in the record. The guy with the gun can just say his uncle gave him the gun years ago, and it's near impossible for a prosecutor to refute that. The "family member" transfer exceptions are a huge loophole since a cousin can gift a gun to their cousin who gives it to their cousin etc. and even if that happened 100 times it would still be perfectly legal. Also, most states don't have universal background checks! So someone potentially could just say "I acquired this through a private sale
when I was driving through Ohio" [Edit: woops, I was wrong about this h/t @The_Nybbler] and good luck refuting that.By Federal law, you can't legally buy a gun privately in a state you don't reside in. (This law should be overturned by Bruen but of course it will not be.)
You're correct, that was an error on my part. I'm now very curious as to how difficult to prove those cases. And since it's a federal prohibition and universal background checks are a state law, that would add another hurdle for enforcement.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link