site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 2, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I gotta agree here @FCfromSSC I like your style and think you're a good writer. You've actually helped convince me to flip more conservative myself since I've been reading the site.

That being said, even I get pretty turned off by your no-holds-barred never changing your mind position. You can believe that sort of thing, but at least keep the fig leaf that you're not actively waging the culture war. If only to slow the descent of this site into a right-wing echo chamber.

That being said, even I get pretty turned off by your no-holds-barred never changing your mind position.

The term you're looking for is fatalism.

I am inclined to argue, but there's little point and it's a fair cop.

[EDIT] - It's tough, you know?

Speak plainly, and it's waging the culture war.

Speak obliquely, and it's darkly hinting.

Don't speak at all, and endure the misery of people asking questions with obvious answers.

Probably I should just make more spaceships.

It would be nice if you guys who believe so strongly in common values and the strength of institutions would actually bring some evidence at some point, though.

Probably I should just make more spaceships.

So you are trolling on the Motte when you could be making spaceships...

You are Elon Musk and I claim my 3 months' free Twitter Blue subscription.

Also get off social media and go back to making spaceships, for all of our sakes.

Probably I should just make more spaceships.

So you are trolling on the Motte when you could be making spaceships...

You are Elon Musk and I claim my 3 months' free

Sadly, no... just an guy who likes making spaceships...

common values and the strength of institutions

Eh honestly I don't know if it's an instrumental reason I can clearly articulate. I certainly don't have strong faith in our institutions. More that I just feel it's wrong to call for violence and to not see the potential for good in humanity.

Honestly I prefer your darkly hinting, I think you're quite good at it. I can sympathize with you though, it is difficult to figure out where to draw the line.

More that I just feel it's wrong to call for violence and to not see the potential for good in humanity.

Hold on... where was he calling for violence? And for that matter, where is he not seeing the potential good in humanity?

IMO any 'accelerationist' position is ultimately calling for violence.

I don't think that's fair. If I believe transhumanism will ultimately result in the genocide of the human race at the hands of the cyborgs, is it ok if I equate advocating for transhumanism with calls for violence?

No, but then again most transhumanists don't nakedly call for violence. The framework of accerlerationism I am familiar with pretty blatantly calls for civil war, and increasing the time frame of that happening.

Well then, not only wasn't FC calling for a civil war, he explicitly said violence is not required for what he's advocating. Maybe he's not the kind of accelerationist you're thinking of? Maybe he's not an accelerationist at all? Maybe you should ask about these things instead of assuming?

Probably I should just make more spaceships.

Take the spaceship pill and make me happy.

Is he actually exhibiting a "no-holds-barred never changing your mind position"? My impression is that what you, and others, are taking an issue with is the "some institutions are hostile, and need to be treated as such" position. That he's supposed to act like these institutions don't have the explicit goal of spreading values hostile to his, even when he can give a direct link to them saying this is what they are doing. While I can understand someone disagreeing with his views on these institutions (and debate on their nature would be very interesting to see), I don't see why the expression of these views should be beyond the pale.