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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   5546 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for September 24, 2023

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

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Which country are you in? I think this is pretty culturally mediated. I don’t mind speaking to polite strangers, but it’s rare in Britain and mostly only happens when people are trying to sell you something (donations for charity, begging, and religious proselytism from large mostly-African or Filipino evangelical megachurches in my experience). In the US speaking to strangers is extremely normalized and seems to happen all the time, even in NYC which has a reputation for being cold or unfriendly by the standards of American cities.

The best thing for social skills is to work in sales for a while. If possible I’ll definitely pressure my kids into taking a summer job in some kind of retail/sales environment as teenagers because all the people I know who did built the confidence there to deal with a lot of different shit in adult life. Smile, look people in the eyes, approach strangers, try to earn a commission, be polite, recognize social cues, it’s all stuff you learn selling shoes or whatever.

I couldn't agree more! I did my time as part of a crew which went around during the summer and painted houses. If you pitched the sale, you got 10% of the contract. I have to admit it was a rough start, but I ended up paying for all my living expenses for college doing it.

Then there's the idea that learning sales frames the world as a sea of marks or buyers to be maneuvered and manipulated. Maybe I'm biased against sales as I saw my dad do it for years and it eventually left a bitter taste. To be a good salesperson requires social savvy, sure, but when you dance with the devil, the devil doesn't change, the devil changes you.

Peripherally relevant but one of my old favorites.

Sales is the worst. Once you really get into the methodology, it changes the way you approach every conversation/interaction.

It's a bit dramatic, but I do believe that learning sales/manipulation/pua techniques is a modern equivalent of selling your soul for worldly gains.

Great. A Faustian bargain where - as is customary - the Devil actually holds up his end of the deal. If pressed, I would suspect that the very popular and the very social have just as cynical views about humanity as the isolated neckbeards, if more measured and refined. However, that is basically just pulled from my ass as well as conversations with friends that knew politician types.

I don't think this is accurate. Unless you're a total sociopath, cynical manipulation can only get you so far. For the most part popular and social folks are just happy. When other people are truly happy you really are drawn to them!

A big part of sales and pua tactics is 'abundance mindset' or basically faking being happy when you aren't.

I have no evidence but I have a very strong hunch that the practical aspects of PUA were almost directly ported over from sales.

Actually I do have a piece of evidence: the way early PUA schemes were marketed showed a marked influence from the web 1.0 sales landing pages (single page, very long, repetitive endorsements from customers, repeated prompts to enter an email for the free book, etc). Also the use of sales terminology like "opening" and "closing".

I suppose it makes sense. You have young men doing sales, making decent money by using a few choice manipulation mechanisms. They decide first to switch to selling their selves to women, and then when it's shown that it works proceeding to selling their techniques back into the market. I think the innovative part of PUA was incorporating evo-psych to explain and contextualise why and how it works.

I think that's what makes FDS such an embarrassment; they show zero curiosity for figuring out what works, why it works, or even whether it works. They're stuck in a blend of basic "diet + cosmetics" magazine tier advice mixed with an internet flavoured radical feminism of pathologising, well, not even masculinity but more the failures of masculinity (porn brain, erectile dysfunction, general "scrote"-ness etc). For people who spend so long in front of the mirror they show a distinct lack of self-reflection. PUA tells men to stop doing what they're doing and do the difficult things they've been avoiding. FDS tells women to keep doing the same thing only more so.

Half the value of PUA is in simply learning what to avoid doing. You don't necessarily have to sell your soul, you can make a big improvement by ceasing to sabotage yourself with rose-tinted romanticism.

What the hell would an effective or valuable version of FDS look like other than simple-but-nontrivial stuff like "be thin, don't be addicted to drugs or alcohol, don't be batshit crazy, have self respect, have a job"?

I have no idea, that's the question isn't it. But if you can entertain the idea that there are women who aren't doing as well as they could because some women are social fuck ups too then it stands to reason there should be practical measures they can take to improve their outcomes. It could range from acknowledging the fertility window, to the poor dating prospects for single mothers, to making an effort to understand what most men want and don't want, through to basic stuff like how to flirt (put the damn phone down!), how to write more than three words on a dating site, and, like I said about PUA, what not to do.

Somewhere out there are women who think that collecting rescue animals, wearing dungarees, spending all day on tumblr and exclusively using photos of themselves in a group of 8 isn't hurting their chances. Moaning about the fact that men like looking at naked women on the internet isn't helping them. Neither is holding on to the idea that there's an athletic, high achieving career focused man who is yearning to take a single mother and her children on an all expenses paid round the world adventure, if only he'd hurry up and find her. "Men are even worse than you thought" is not what they need to hear. Otherwise they'll fall into the MGTOW cope trap where they spend 24/7 thinking about how awful the opposite sex while claiming they've forsworn any interest in them.

The best thing for social skills is to work in sales for a while. If possible I’ll definitely pressure my kids into taking a summer job in some kind of retail/sales environment as teenagers because all the people I know who did built the confidence there to deal with a lot of different shit in adult life. Smile, look people in the eyes, approach strangers, try to earn a commission, be polite, recognize social cues, it’s all stuff you learn selling shoes or whatever.

Yeah sales jobs are practically getting rejected for a living. Even though I think asking for numbers is turning that up to 11 because that has to the potential to hurt on a personal level as opposed to "maybe my employers product just sucks".

But for those who don't want to dive into the deep end, it's a good enough compromise, money notwithstanding.

Which country are you in? I think this is pretty culturally mediated. I don’t mind speaking to polite strangers, but it’s rare in Britain and mostly only happens when people are trying to sell you something (donations for charity, begging, and religious proselytism from large mostly-African or Filipino evangelical megachurches in my experience). In the US speaking to strangers is extremely normalized and seems to happen all the time, even in NYC which has a reputation for being cold or unfriendly by the standards of American cities.

In just about one of the worst places in The World for this. Dubai.

Too many different language barriers and cultures to navigate.

But yeah the US is pretty nice in the regard. I was striking up conversations with Americans in the gas station, game store, street when I was visiting, including in NYC.

Yeah, I like that as an idea. Also aristocratic tutoring in networking and social skill by the most graceful political motherfucker you can find. And life and death struggle, especially for the boys.

Why don't you recommend he try the Hock?

@f3zinker has seen the Hock and is undoubtedly aware of it. The Hock is best when it is freely chosen to freeze weakness off of one's character or soul and allow a person to become Hock hardened. Every man should consider whether or not to Hock and if so, what his Hock looks like. Not everyone's Hock takes place in the Alaskan wilderness. There may be many Hocks, but the Alaskan Hock is mine.

Where did the work Hock come from btw? Is there some real etymology or do you just like the sound of it?

I heard "hock" used by my father as a slang word meaning "to throw": he once told me "Son, you can't just hock that wet log onto the fire like that..."

Of course, I also like the sound.

Emirates flight attendants are the conversationalists you seek.

Aren’t they all hookers?

(Coughs) Well. No. Whatever gave you that idea? I only speak with some degree of knowledge in that I've known at least four of said CAs, one of whom I consider a dear friend, though she quit last year.

But seriously what makes you have that impression?

Aren't we all...? /strokes beard

They are too high end

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