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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   28479 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 11, 2023

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How about a law to preserve the substance of the Pico plurality decision, which is probably no longer good law, to prevent red schools from removing ideas they don't like, and blue states from doing the same?

That sounds like a horrible idea. I can see why blues would go along with it on the assumption it will hurt reds more, but why would anyone else agree to it?

  1. I don't understand why you frame it as which side gets to hurt the other more, as opposed to both sides benefiting from ensuring that their ideas are not censored.
  2. Have you not heard of cancel culture, and the like? Do you think that only conservatives try to censor ideas that they don't like? A law that prevents censorship benefits all sides.

Because realistically the way that law would play out is that school libraries have to keep the actual porn that got stocked because it’s gay, but academic cancel culture is unaffected.

I’m not just nybblerposting here- academic cancel culture is mostly done through pressuring academics to resign. Actual use of hard power to reshape anything to do with schools is extremely red coded.

Except that my suggestion was re codifying Pico, which does not prevent the removal of material because it includes sex, or profanity, or violence, etc. It only apples to removal of books based "upon disagreement with constitutionally protected ideas in those books, or upon a desire on petitioners' part to impose upon the students of the [school] a political orthodoxy to which petitioners and their constituents adhered."

So, absent Pico, blue schools will almost certainly remove books that are supposedly "racist."

Because libraries in general, but low-resourced ones like the ones in schools in particular, will not keep every book that has ever been published. There will always be curation of content, it seems the only question here is whether parents should be allowed to overrule librarians, and I don't see why the answer to that should be "no" whether we're talking about blue, or red parents. Whether or not both sides will benefit from lack of this kind of "censorship" will also depend on whether librarians tend to have a bias towards one side or the other.

it seems the only question here is whether parents should be allowed to overrule librarians, and I don't see why the answer to that should be "no" whether we're talking about blue, or red parents.

No, that isn't the issue. The issue is whether a majority of parents can silence all views with which they disagree, and whether schools should only provide information on one side of political issues. That certainly is not the norm. Most school districts, be they red or be they blue, have "controversial issues" policies which require teachers to teach such issues objectively, and to provide views on all sides. Even the supposed "anti-CRT" laws generally do not ban those ideas from class but instead provide that discussion thereof is perfectly fine if "instruction is given in an objective manner without endorsement.".

And, you would be OK if your kid's school only taught Das Kapital, and only had Marxist works in their libraries, and blocked all websites other than those that gave Marxist interpretations of history, economics, politics, etc?

Whether or not both sides will benefit from lack of this kind of "censorship" will also depend on whether librarians tend to have a bias towards one side or the other

School boards, not librarians, are ultimately responsible for deciding what books can be in libraries, and school boards often are asked to remove books which are not politically correct.

No, that isn't the issue. The issue is whether a majority of parents can silence all views with which they disagree, and whether schools should only provide information on one side of political issues.

If that's not the issue, then please explain how this law would prevent librarians from curating away books they don't like, and if it wouldn't, please explain how that state of affairs would be superior to having it done by the majority of parents.

And, you would be OK if your kid's school only taught Das Kapital, and only had Marxist works in their libraries, and blocked all websites other than those that gave Marxist interpretations of history, economics, politics, etc?

Presumably that would mean I'm living in a school district that is majority Marxist. Aside from the fact that at that point I'd have far bigger problems than the school library, yes I would be a lot more ok with that than having these decision made by a single librarian., actually forget about "a lot more than" I'd be ok with it without qualification. Communities have a right to maintain their culture. If Marxville wants a library full of Marx, it's their right.

It also looks like you were trying to address the other part of my comment but didn't get around to it?

then please explain how this law would prevent librarians from curating away books they don't like,

The point is that, in the absence of the law, libraries will not simply be able to remove books with views they don't like; they will have the right to do so. In contrast, if the law is passed, they risk losing funding or worse if they do so. Will it absolutely prevent them from doing so? No, just as laws against murder do not absolutely prevent murders.

yes I would be a lot more ok with that than having these decision made by a single librarian.

You are avoiding the issue. The issue is not by whom it should be done, but rather whether it is ok with it being done at all.

It also looks like you were trying to address the other part of my comment but didn't get around to it?

No, there was just a formatting problem. I have edited it for clarity.

The point is that, in the absence of the law, libraries will not simply be able to remove books with views they don't like; they will have the right to do so. In contrast, if the law is passed, they risk losing funding or worse if they do so. Will it absolutely prevent them from doing so? No, just as laws against murder do not absolutely prevent murders.

Sorry, but I'm not willing to give away the option to prevent flooding the library with propaganda on the vague promise that it will be "risky" to do so. Yes, a situation where parents have the right to control the libraries, rather than just librarians, is far superior.

You are avoiding the issue. The issue is not by whom it should be done, but rather whether it is ok with it being done at all.

I addressed it in the edit.

I'm not willing to give away the option to prevent flooding the library with propaganda

Well, we will have to agree to disagree, because I see that as deeply improper. And, as Justice Alito has correctly noted, 'The public schools are invaluable and beneficent institutions, but they are, after all, organs of the State." Morse v. Frederick, 551 US 393, 424 (2007). That is true regardless of whether decisions are made by librarians or parents.

The public schools are invaluable and beneficent institutions, but they are, after all, organs of the State.

Which is precisely why parents should have the right to veto propaganda taught in schools - it amounts to the state indoctrinating their children.

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