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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   26880 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 4, 2023

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I was on one of these busses that was filled with migrants sometime around the beginning of the year. The bus was traveling from San Antonio to Dallas. It was a normal Greyhound bus, and I had purchased a ticket. When I got to the bus station, there was some kind of (possibly Christian) charity group distributing boxed lunches. Most passenger wore stickers on their chests listing their names and final destinations.

I talked a bit to the guy sitting next to me (I speak Spanish). I'll call him L. L was from Venezuela, but had been living the past few years in Ecuador. He had a wife and 2 kids remaining in South America. He'd crossed north through Central America and then Mexico through some combination of foot, car, and rail. Finally, he'd arrived at the US border a few days prior. He proceeded to cross-over around Laredo, TX, then surrendered himself to American immigration agents. L was detained for a few days in some kind of immigration facility, then discharged to the streets with an (online) court date for a year in the future. Someone told L he should proceed to some kind of homeless shelter, so that's what he did. He stayed there for a few days, and then someone came and offered him (and other migrants) a free, 1-way bus ticket to the American city of their choosing. L chose Indianapolis, because he had some relatives living there. Some days later, he was escorted into a shuttle with other migrants, transported by shuttle to the Laredo bus station, handed a stack of bus tickets (there's no direct route from Laredo to Indianapolis!), and encouraged to board the bus. His first stop was San Antonio. L told me he'd worked as an auto mechanic before, and that he hoped to find similar work in Indianapolis, but that he was willing to work at any kind of job.

A few points:

  1. L maintained that he had been treated well during his few days in detention. (I asked.)
  2. L was clearly an economic migrant. He wasn't fleeing violence, or religious persecution, or climate change, or anything like that. He saw America as an economic opportunity for himself and his family (correctly or not).
  3. L seemed intent on finding a job ASAP. He asked me whether I could help him find work.
  4. L seemed intent on learning English. He asked me some questions about how to say simple words in English.
  5. L expressed the hope of saving money, then sending for his wife and kids to join him. He maintained that he would fly them to America, because it would be too dangerous for them to travel across land as he had done.
  6. I have no idea who the agent was who distributed bus tickets, or on whose authority he was acting. Did he operate in a governmental capacity? As a private citizen? As part of an NGO? I don't know.
  7. There was some kind of charity group (it seemed) greeting the migrants in San Antonio. I don't know who they were or what their role was, or how they were organized.
  8. L maintained that he hadn't been coerced into leaving Texas.
  9. This was a normal, commercial bus. It wasn't chartered. I had purchased a ticket online. Most of the people on the bus seemed to be migrants.
  10. L had received a medical evaluation when he entered detention, but he didn't mention any medical exam having been administered prior to his boarding the bus.
  11. I have no idea how typical L's case is.
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Reading this I wish L the best of luck in making a successful life in the USA. Economic migrants (of all stripes) are one of the few groups for whom their version of the American Dream is still a possibility.

I admire L and his actions, because they demonstrate that he's high agency.

I despise our country's response to his actions, because it means we're not.

That's the equivalent of "I met a poor person who genuinely needed a car, and the US budget is obviously able to handle giving out a car, so we should buy cars for every poor person who needs a car."

Even if the immigrant isn't a criminal and can get a job at a reasonable salary, the problem is the country only has resources for a limited number of immigrants. Because the drain on resources is distributed as a zillion dust specks, if you peer at any specific example it will always seem like that particular example couldn't possibly drain enough resources to matter, no matter where you put the limit. But cumulatively, doing that ends up meaning completely open borders and no limit at all.

Or in other words, the sympathy for the individual immigrant is a concentrated benefit, while the drain on resources is a distributed harm, so it's always going to look like we should add just one more immigrant because we don't balance concentrated benefits and distributed harms very well.

I'm not convinced that people like L are a harm on the country in any way shape or form, at least any more than comparable citizens. I can accept that the country is better off without L, but then I equally want acceptance that the country is better off without all its low end citizens (I am not asking for the citizens to be removed, I just want there to be a societal consensus that the low end citizens are a drain on society, who only get what they have by grace of their superiors), and we all know that's never happening.

The next best alternative to this is to flood the country with people like L. That way the wilfully blind societal consensus gets what it deserves by being run over.

Someone like L who has a trade, family members who will house him and get him work, and wants to assimilate isn't the worst type and good luck to him. The people trying to argue that it's a river, not a pie and that the USA can handle unlimited amounts of immigrants because they will magically grow the economy are the ones who need their feet held over a fire (in Minecraft).

I can accept that the country is better off without L, but then I equally want acceptance that the country is better off without all its low end citizens (I am not asking for the citizens to be removed, I just want there to be a societal consensus that the low end citizens are a drain on society, who only get what they have by grace of their superiors), and we all know that's never happening.

Without all its low end citizens? Or without a chunk of them? After all, not a lot of people are demanding that all immigrants be kept out.

And even if you restrict it to "a lot of low end citizens", that's sort of cheating, because it's indeed widely believed but it would get you cancelled if you say it in public. (There are also a noticeable contingent of people who "don't believe" it but whose revealed preference shows otherwise.)

Without all its low end citizens? Or without a chunk of them? After all, not a lot of people are demanding that all immigrants be kept out.

We could in theory rank all citizens (or households headed by citizens) in order by net value to the country; anyone below a citizen whose net value is zero you could define as a "low end citizen"; then the country would be better off without them.

Without a large chunk of them,.not without all of them. Just like cancer, the optimal amount of low end citizens is non-zero.

Fair enough that my language in the post above was needlessly extreme.

I fail to see how this type of immigrant is a resource drain at almost any scale. He's hungry and eager to work, has a skill, is willing to learn english (which I'll take as signaling the desire to assimilate). The job market is tight. Where's the downside? Yes at some point we don't need more workers but we're several million workers short of that at the moment.

Perhaps in a more perfect world we'd have an elaborate visa system like Canada to only let in the immigrants like this. But in some respects the journey he made was the elaborate filter, and seems to be doing a somewhat decent job. I trust the government to do almost nothing properly, so maybe a difficult journey works just as well in practice as letting the government pick immigrants.

Where's the downside?

The downside is the (alleged) corrosion of social fabric and other intangibles. On a purely material level, working age immigrants with useful skills are pretty much a free lunch.

On a purely material level, working age immigrants with useful skills are pretty much a free lunch.

Only if they pay enough taxes to cover their use of government services. Which if they have kids they very likely don't.

a) workers create value for society beyond what they pay in tax to the government.
b) their children are also going to grow up to be taxpayers, so if you're going to consider the cost of their education you also have to consider the benefits of their labor.
c) the specific scenario mentioned above is a man alone (yes, he has a family he has ambitions to bring to the US, but they're not in the country and drawing benefits, and if they do that's going to be another working adult)

workers create value for society beyond what they pay in tax to the government.

Ah, that wonderful abstraction, "society". Show me, if I'm the guy having to pay all the taxes to pay for their kid's schools and playgrounds and free lunches and whatever, how that value gets to me?

their children are also going to grow up to be taxpayers

Or they'll be welfare recipients. But I think it's better to consider this on a current cash basis, the future being notoriously hard to predict.

If society is too abstract, substitute "L's employer and customers".

Show me, if I'm the guy having to pay all the taxes to pay for their kid's schools and playgrounds and free lunches and whatever, how that value gets to me?

L becomes an auto-mechanic, lowering the cost of auto-mechanic services by $0.01, saving you $0.25 over the next 20 years and more than offsetting the $0.10 you paid for his child's education. L also contributes to aggregate demand as a consumer, raising demand for your labor and causing your salary to rise $0.005.

Or they'll be welfare recipients.

2nd gen Hispanic immigrants have earnings significantly higher than their parents.

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He's so willing to work he's undercutting the wages of natives.

Fuck him, send him back where he came from along with the rest of the foreigners.

Unnecessarily antagonistic, write like you want to include others in the conversation, low effort, banned for this behavior before...

Let's call it seven days this time.

I considered making a comment with a similar angle. As nice as it is for L to work for a better life and all that, it's also bad when a bunch of Ls undercut people's wages. I see the "a bunch of" as the problem, not L himself.

It's also morally questionable that the US incentivized him to take a dangerous journey, too dangerous for his family by his own account, in order to get here.

Beyond that, all the authorities knew was "this guy showed up at the border," and they just released him with a joke of a court date. L seems nice, he knows a trade (or so he claims), he's certainly courageous, and I infer that he's a hard worker. A model immigrant, in other words. Most people who show up at the border probably aren't L.

A question for you, KMC. If the US accepted fewer immigrants, would you mind L becoming a citizen? Pick your ideal number of immigrants accepted each year for the hypothetical, whether 10 or 1000000.

Put another way: Do you absolutely hate all immigrants/foreigners in the US, or are you reacting to the ever-increasing number entering the country? Something else entirely?

Your vitriol seems misplaced. L isn't the problem, it's the people who made the policies that convinced L that migrating here was a good idea.

A question for you, KMC. If the US accepted fewer immigrants, would you mind L becoming a citizen? Pick your ideal number of immigrants accepted each year for the hypothetical, whether 10 or 1000000.

Yes, I would mind if he became a citizen. He does not belong here, and I do not want him. I do not want people like him. My ideal number of immigrants is 0.

you absolutely hate all immigrants/foreigners in the US, or are you reacting to the ever-increasing number entering the country? Something else entirely?

Hate? No, I just don't want them, and have no sympathy for them. I don't care if their lives suck, I don't care why they want to be here, I don't care if they live or die, or where they choose to do those things as long as it's not here. I'm through caring about the reasons. I simply want at least two generations of no immigration, to start to make up for the two generations of foreign invasion of my country.

In short, the plight of immigrants is not a relevant factor in my decision making, but the presence of immigrants is undesirable for me. So get them out of here by any means necessary.

L isn't the problem

Yes he is.

it's the people who made the policies that convinced L that migrating here was a good idea.

Them, too. Do you have their names or addresses?

This is a good thing. It means that I, as a consumer of labor in the USA, can get the same product at a cheaper price.

Protectionism in trade, which is what your argument amounts to, tends to benefit the few at the expense of the many and are negative sum over all. If skilled mechanics come to the USA from Central and South America mechanics in the USA will be econimically worse off but everyone who needs their car fixed will be economically better off

This is a bad thing. It means that I, as a seller of labor in the USA, am getting undercut by foreigners who have no business being in this country. It means that my wages will no longer reflect my productivity, but rather the supply of labor.

Protectionism in trade, which is what your argument amounts to, tends to benefit the few at the expense of the many and are negative sum over all.

Probably, but I'm not the all, and I don't care about the sums of all. I'm one person, and I care about myself. The US is in a position to weather any trade wars better than the places where this guy is coming from, and I will benefit from a reduction in the supply of labor.

everyone who needs their car fixed will be economically better off

Unless you sell goods or services to mechanics, then your customers are getting poorer.

I want protectionism, I've taken economics classes, I understand the globohomo propaganda, and I'm not buying what you're selling.

Deport the foreigners with great prejudice. Throw up protectionist tariffs. Replace the income tax with tariffs and fund the federal government the way it was meant to be funded.

Probably, but I'm not the all, and I don't care about the sums of all. I'm one person, and I care about myself. I will benefit from a reduction in the supply of labor.

Why are you so certain you'll benefit from a reduction in the supply of labor? You are both a producer and a consumer of labor (even if you don't employ people directly you do it indirectly all the time) so the effect on you personally could go either way. The specifics depend on your line of work and your consumption habits as well as the lines of work of the migrants. I don't know what you do for work but if you're anything like the typical motte poster you won't be facing a lot of direct competition from uneducated migrants so if you're solely interested in your own economic situation as you claim the consumption effect could easily dominate.

Probably, but I'm not the all, and I don't care about the sums of all. I'm one person, and I care about myself.

I assume you don't like anti-monopoly laws either. That or you're a massive hypocrite, which is fine, but then you can't complain either about Affirmative Action and other policies designed to disadvantage those like you (apologies for assuming you're a standard white person with nothing exceptional going for you) over people with the right skin colour/beliefs.

Do you mean antitrust? I don't see how that's relevant to my comments, and I don't see how it can possibly make me a hypocrite.

I don't want monopolies for the same reason I don't want foreigners: it's bad for me. No hypocrisy needed.

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