This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Then go somewhere you aren't surrounded by enemies, as @Amadan and many other users have been saying.
I don't think that's almost ever the case. There have been some miraculous transformations in life towards living a more peaceful and gentle life. Take for instance General Butt Naked, who transitioned from literally being a cannibal warlord to a Christian who at least purportedly does good deeds and runs a church. If you want to tell me that you and @Hoffmeister25 have fallen farther or are more surrounded by darkness than he is, well, it will take a lot of convincing to say the least.
I think this 'woe is me' attitude is the problem with large parts of the conservative movement, as a matter of fact. I tend to sympathize with the viewpoints of young white men who struggle to make it in the modern world, but if you change your viewpoint and take some damn agency and responsibility for your situation, your life can change into something much better than you might imagine. I say this because I see the posts above getting a lot of upvotes, and I'm worried about the type of young men especially who endorse these sentiments.
That presumes the existence and practicality of moving to such a place. I'm not going to fit in with "red tribe" any better than I fit in with blue, and if I tried I'd have a couple of strikes against me for coming from a blue place and not being religious or generally not understanding the culture at a practical level.
There's a culture war on, and my enemies are winning; no place is safe.
I think this attitude on the part of normies and "responsible conservatives" is part of why the left is winning. The left sees or imagines an injustice towards one of its own, they rally around them. Normies or responsible conservatives see an injustice towards someone by the left, it was the victim's personal responsibility to avoid it. Got a sexual harassment complaint for saying hello to the wrong girl? Well maybe you should have read the signals better. Got fired for saying the wrong thing? Well maybe you should have kept your damn mouth shut. "But leftists can say what they want?" "We're not talking about them, are we?".
Wrong. Responsibility has a large part to play, but it's not the victim's responsibility to avoid it. It's the victim's responsibility to deal with it, grow stronger, and continue to stick to good morals and the path of God. The path you and @Hoffmeister25 are taking is fundamentally weak, that's why 'normie' conservatives don't like it.
This may be true in some scenarios, while at the same time it's true that the larger society, and a specific subset of progressives in particular, are at fault. You are trying to reduce out all of the context and nuance in these situations and make it black and white, between you and 'leftists,' your sworn enemies. Again, I think that type of response is weak and leads to horrible outcomes. I reject it entirely.
The path the normies take is "don't make trouble", and it's the weakest of all. It just leads to them not realizing they've lost anything until the day they find out they're no longer a "normie", if that day ever comes.
Rejecting the black and white just leads to the current situation where the left steamrollers everything. If you get a sexual harassment complaint for saying hello to the wrong girl, that's wrong. Trying to find some sort of "nuance" which excuses both the complainant and the consequences to the complainee while still agreeing that the complaint is wrong is futile; it's not logically or politically possible. It's not nuance, it's hypocrisy or capitulation masquerading as such.
More options
Context Copy link
I read "Then go somewhere you aren't surrounded by enemies, as @Amadan and many other users have been saying" as "it's the victim's responsibility to avoid it". And you said that two posts up.
It's the victim's responsibility to, if they are in a place or situation where their morals or sense of right and wrong is continually violated, find a place or set of relationships where their values are respected. From there they need to start working to live those positive values and encourage others to do the same by example.
Complaining about your situation, refusing to change anything, and calling for violence is not an admirable response at all in my view.
How is "it's the victim's responsibility to find a place where their values are respected" different from "it's the victim's responsibility to avoid it"? (Where "it" means "their values aren't respected")
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
I don't understand how the proverb connects to your answer.
It sounds like you are saying that if someone becomes a victim twice, they don't count as a victim at all, so it's okay to tell them to avoid being victimized. Is that a correct reading?
I'm saying that people should be open, honest and trusting as a general rule, because that's the right thing to do. If you get burned by that, it's not your fault. It's not your responsibility to be so cynical and closed off from the world that you never get hurt.
However if you repeatedly get hurt in similar ways, it's your responsibility to look at the situation, figure out why you're getting hurt, and either change yourself or your situation to avoid being victimized further.
People still 'count as a victim' although I'm not sure what this phrase means exactly even if they're victimized twice. But the duty of a victim is to grow beyond their victimization into a more actualized human, in my view, and hopefully help prevent the victimization they dealt with in the future.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link