This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
No, you've pointed out that Christianity was originally a Jewish splinter sect (which is like pointing out that Rome once ruled Gaul - were you under the impression that this is secret knowledge?), and you are claiming that they "worship the God of Israel and believe in the Jewish covenant."
I don't know how familiar you actually are with Christianity - if you have ever been a Christian, or only studied it from a hostile white nationalist ZOG-hating perspective - but the question of whether Jews and Christians worship the same god, and whether the Jewish covenant was replaced by the new covenant represented by Jesus Christ is a whole thing with lots of exegesis around it. These are issues that seminarians debate and books are written about, and have been since basically the first century A.D. Suffice it to say that some Christians do take the position you describe, that "Judeo-Christianity" is a thing and the Jews are God's Chosen People, and some very much do not.
No. What I said is that Christianity was originally a Jewish splinter sect. Is it a "Jewish religion"? In the same sense that Islam is a "Judeo-Christian" religion (Islam claims that the Torah and the Bible are both valid holy books which are completed by the Quran). They obviously share history and many of the same holy books. But I am pretty sure what you mean by "Jewish religion" is something other than that - something more in keeping with your ongoing narrative about Jews sneakily subverting and manipulating everything they come in contact with. Do I deny that Christianity is a massive historical Jewish psy-op, in other words? Well, yes, I do find that unlikely.
I may be pointing, but I am not sputtering. For all your indignation that I pull off your lampshade by talking about ZOG and the Elders of Zion and neo-Nazis, you never deny that this is where you are coming from, which is why I am so persistent in putting them on the table in plain sight. Your tactics could as fairly be described as "Look, squirrel!" when people drill in on your specific claims. Yes, Christians worship a Messiah who was a Jew. That is... not something that has ever been in dispute. The neo-Nazi interpretation of this is "Christians worship a Jew, like the Greeks worshipped Zeus!" You might try actually looking at how Christians see it, they have probably spent more time than you have thinking about this. Of course I don't really care about Christian theology per se, but you seem to think you are sharing some shocking truth about the Jewish Origins of Christianity, and I can't tell if you are being disingenuous or are just genuinely unaware that this is old (very, very old) news and ten different Christian denominations will have ten or twelve different things to say about "Are you a Jewish religion?"
And again, this is no different from any other zealot spouting off about his religious beliefs. Yes, what Jews say, what Christians say, what Muslims say, what atheists say, actually impacts the way we view the world and engage with others around us.
And? Where is the big reveal about Jews and how they're different?
I am actually stunned, you think it's some controversy to say that they worship the God of Israel and affirm the claims of the covenant described in the Hebrew bible? From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
They absolutely do worship the same god, how is this even a controversy? They acknowledge the Torah as being true!
I have the most exposure to Catholic doctrine and Southern Evangelical culture, and the latter is more rabidly pro-Jew than Catholics, and Catholics according to doctrine absolutely believe they worship the same god.
Why can't you just bite the bullet and admit that this is true? That's what I don't understand. How is it even controversial to claim Christians worship the God of Israel? Their Holy text lays this out verbatim, they affirm the Hebrew bible as being true...
I don't deny it because it's just ad hominem and I don't like to let people try to derail the conversation by trying to manipulate denunciations from their interlocutors. I didn't talk about ZOG, or the Elders of Zion, or neo-Nazis, I talked about Jesus and Paul and the Old Testament. You started talking about those things to try to discredit me and derail the conversation, me ignoring your attempt to do this does not constitute a non-denial, it's called being ignored for bringing nothing to the conversation.
I talk about how Christians worship the Jewish god and then you go on about Neo-Nazis. You're the one who's ideologically motivated, I'm calling a spade a spade.
They are a Jewish religion, it doesn't matter whether it's old news or new news, it matters that this fact is true and important. It also doesn't matter if they have ten or twelve answers, the only coherent answer is "yes." They do worship a Jewish god, their own holy texts that they hold as being true lays this out verbatim. They worship the King of the Jews. Obviously it's controversial if people like you are keen to deny it flat in the face of all the evidence.
No, you aren't.
No, I do not. Try responding to the entire paragraph, not just that one sentence you excerpted.
Southern Evangelicals are "pro-Jew" in the sense that they believe Israel is necessary to fulfill prophecy and bring about the End Times. Notably, they also believe that Jews who don't accept Christ are absolutely going to hell.
Why can't you be honest about what I said? Yes, Jews and Christians and Muslims all worship the same God. They also each believe the others are worshiping him wrongly. The part you are excerpting and pretending to be "stunned" about is specifically your references to the "God of Israel" which, in the specific and deliberate way that you use the term, is trying to cast Christianity as a literally Jewish religion. Not a religion whose origins were as a splinter sect of Judaism, but basically something engineered and puppeted by Jews.
That is what I am disputing with you, and you know exactly what I meant.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link