site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 14, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I knew that, but actually what I meant by "include Catholics, Mormons, and JWs in that bucket" is that many Protestant denominations believe that Mormons (and Catholics, etc.) are not Christian and will go to hell. Which I'm sure you know.

As for the idea that those who never had the opportunity to hear the Word can get a second chance, that's also not unique to the LDS.

I think basically there are a vast number of Christians who know perfectly well what the official word of their religion says (don't accept Christ, go to hell, do not pass purgatory) but they're really uncomfortable (as they should be) with the idea that millions of good and sincere people, including their friends and family, will burn in hell forever because they made a wrong choice. So they construct all these elaborate exceptions and Get Out Of Hell passes to convince themselves the system is just.

Fail on my part. That's what I get for not double checking what I read XD.

And yeah, I figured there was probably some others who viewed it that way, though I wasn't sure which denominations and what the specifics are. There is a lot of denominations out there, and I probably just haven't had the right conversations yet :). I do know that certain Muslim groups belive it is possible to rise from 'hell' to a neutral place, and the neutral place to heaven... although I'm not sure which group in particular it was.

Yeah I wouldn't be suprised if that's the case. It's a bit of a moral dilemna there. I'm guessing most just imagine that God is just and merciful... so he'll have mercy and give them a chance to believe. But not sue on that count. I'll have to ask some of my friends. :)

The problem of hell is a classic theological issue. I do like the idea that hell is temporary. In short, despite being raised Protestant catholic ideas really appea to me

Hell in Catholicism is not temporary. I think you're thinking of purgatory, which is where the saved do penance for minor sins until they're expiated.

Some Catholic theologians came up with the concept of the empty hell.

And they are considered heretical. Heaven and hell are permanent destinations; purgatory is a temporary stopover on the way to heaven for people who are saved, but not by enough to go straight to heaven.