This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I'm not a Catholic, but my understanding of Catholic theology on the subject of whether Jews and other non-Catholics can go to heaven is: "It's complicated." Basically, being a Catholic is the only sure way; if you're not a Catholic, theoretically there are a bunch of other criteria you have to meet which would make you eligible for heaven, but it's almost impossible to meet them without the guidance of the Church. Of course this leaves plenty of waffle room for more liberal-minded Catholics to say "Of course Jews can go to heaven."
Contrary to what you see on TV, though, pretty much no Christian denomination actually believes that being a "good person" (or a true believer in whatever your religion happens to be) is sufficient.
As a practicing catholic yes, this accurately summarizes the mainstream/official Catholic teaching on the subject however something missing is that observant Jews (as distinct from secular individuals of Jewish decent) are viewed a special case subject to their own distinct covenant. Whether they are saved is a matter for debate but also not up to us because God already made that call.
More options
Context Copy link
The waffle room that exists is in terms of consent. You only go to hell if you are informed and have the opportunity to accept Christ but refuse to do so. So a more liberal-minded Catholic has waffle room to say that a boy with a good heart who grows up in an Islamic society and gets no real "opportunity" to accept Christ is not doomed to hell.
The Catholic stance on the Jews is completely different. It's saying that they get salvation even if they knowingly reject Christ, but the justification is "unfathomable mystery" rather than trying to apply the other waffle room to all Jews. They are just special, so they get to go to heaven even if they reject Christ, and yes it's a complete contradiction with the Church but that's your mind on Yahweh.
Yes, but they all pretty much define "opportunity" according to what they are personally most comfortable with. I've heard Christians express it the way you did, and I've heard Christians claim that if you've ever so much as heard the name "Jesus Christ," you have now heard the Word and have no excuse.
Again, there are protestant denominations that also believe this. Both Catholics and Protestants do consider Jews different from other non-Christians religions. Just as Muslims recognize Jews and Christians as fellow "People of the Book." The cause is the obvious historical relationship. It's not some sneaky Jewish tribal strategy to insert themselves even into their rivals' theology. Of course it is not rational, but one of the few things you and I probably agree on is that religion in general is not rational.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link