site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

12
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

If I were making a science fiction game set in a future where bodies can be changed with ease and I was convinced by modern day gender theory I think I'd want to be confident enough in my beliefs that I would not need to have a transgendered character, or at least that any major body change being not considered a big deal would explain all an intelligent player needs to have explained. Including trans people in a world they'd be easily cured strikes me as like including lepers as well on the grounds that they were once marginalized, the action of someone who has thoroughly forgotten the reason they wanted to include them in the first place. I guess the question is would the inclusion be because you want to explore questions of gender theory or just as a flag to modern day culture. I generally find flags to modern day culture tacky.

In a future world with easy, 100% effective sex changes, then transgenderism would no longer be the signal that it is today.

Consider that, in the 1970s or whatever, having any tattoo was edgy and cool. By the 1990s, you had to have full arm sleeves to fill that same niche. And nowadays, of course, sleeves are meh and to be really transgressive you have to go full Post Malone with neck and face tattoos.

Powerful signals of group belonging and transgression need to be hard. Perhaps a Star Trek character filling the same niche would belong to an ascetic religious order. The audience could gasp at their naked back, deeply scarred from flagellation. Sure the person in question could use a TriCorder to erase the scars any time, but the scars would be a meaningful signal of deep devotion to a cause.

Ghost in the Shell kind of barely dealt with this. Stand Alone Complex Season 1 Episode 1 focused on a politician who liked to drink and swap artificial bodies with women. The strangeness of that sort of behavior is tangentially mentioned in a couple lines of dialogue. They are the first generation of people with easy body swapping so this is a secret worthy of an eyebrow raise.

It's also regularly questioned why The Major uses a female chassis, with even other members of her own team spelling out that a male chassis allows for greater muscular strength. Her counterpoint is to beat Batou with his own fists. For a while, fan theories thought she might have been AMAB before cyberization, although 2nd Gig very heavily implies that she was the "little girl" that was a fellow plane crash survivor to Kuze (though diehard fans of trans Makoto suggest she'd started IDing as female at that age).

In a future where the (upper?) middle class and above can afford artificial bodies, what would it even mean to be trans? They choose body aesthetics the way we choose car styling. Picking a generic hot girl body from a catalog as the major did would be as easy for a guy as a girl. Those fans are silly, I would have thought officially wrong and better yet totally irrelevant the premise of pure brain-body disconnect.

Perhaps relevant is Batou's choice of a purely functional body. They animate him head and shoulders taller than everyone else and with expressionless metal eyes that can sort of see through active camouflage. And in one episode he admits to having no penis. He's a huge jacked expressionless cyborg spec ops Ken doll. High speed low drag enabled by sci fi technology.

There's also her apparent surprise and amusement at being accidentally installed in a male chassis by Batou at the end of the original manga.