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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   32274 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 17, 2023

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It seems odd to me to talk about immigration in America without talking about, you know, immigration in America. "A nation of immigrants" is a cliche but America's current population pretty much all arrived in the past 400 years from other places. And in that time it went from being a handful of starving colonies to the most powerful nation in world history (as well as one of the richest). At times the Italians, Irish, and other Catholic nationalities were considered to be a mean, mongrel group who could never be trusted. Now a white nativist probably couldn't tell them apart from any other American. The Chinese were also once believed to be uncivilized barbarians; now they along with other Asian-Americans are literally too successful to avoid being discriminated against by college admissions. (Yes, recent immigrants are not a contiguous group with most of the ones who migrated in the 1800s to work in California--but neither genetics nor culture is going to change that much in 150 years. Modern immigrants are richer, but almost all the European immigrants were poor too. If they had been allowed to, the Chinese immigrants of the 1800s could have assimilated trivially easily).

All through these times recent immigrants and their families often provided large amounts of cheap labor, settled new frontiers, and gradually improved their lot--the American dream. When they arrived, they often formed immigrant enclaves, but gradually assimilated over a few generations--other commenters seem to sneer at this possibility, but as far as I can tell it's literally exactly what has been happening for many years. The first generation that moves as adults is mostly the old culture, their kids are a mix, and the grandkids are just like other Americans. Sometimes it happens faster than this, but even if it does take this long it doesn't seem to matter.

In light of all of this history, most of the fears proposed by modern anti-immigration activists seem to ring hollow.

In light of all of this history, most of the fears proposed by modern anti-immigration activists seem to ring hollow.

So the federal government is still <5% of GDP and there are no racial quotas? Wow. What a relief to the 1890 nativists.

When they arrived, they often formed immigrant enclaves, but gradually assimilated over a few generations--other commenters seem to sneer at this possibility, but as far as I can tell it's literally exactly what has been happening for many years.

The difference is that then, nobody was proclaiming diversity is our strength. No, they were actively proclaiming for assimilation and suppression of foreign cultures and foreign tongues, if not explicitly foreign people. You're also discounting a huge difference in scope. There were never as many Italians or Irish then as there are Mexicans and assorted CA hispanics now. There has never been as much immigration as there has been in the last 60 years. Things have changed, and those changes have destroyed the mechanism for the assimilation that you take for granted. Hence the sneering. That machine's broken, it's not going to be rebuilt, and anyone who wants to do so is pilloried.

In an ideal world, the spanish language speaking hispanics would meet the same fate as the german language speaking germanics from the 20th century: complete replacement of their language and wholesale assimilation into the dominant culture. This won't happen, because that goose is cooked.

There were never as many Italians or Irish then as there are Mexicans and assorted CA hispanics now.

I'm a restrictionist that wants to see a period of slow-down and assimilation, but the current foreign-born population is comparable to latter half of the 19th century. Much like that time, I think we're due to take a couple generations to assimilate everyone into a fully American identity, but the numbers are not any more overwhelming than the previous great waves.

It's also noteworthy that the previous wave of mass immigration (1900–1920) lasted only twenty years and then was followed by a near total stop of immigration that lasted until the late 1960s.

It was during that period of pause that all the Italians, Irish, Poles, Jews, etc... were homogenized into the melting pot.

The current run of mass immigration has been running unchecked since the 1990s and assimilation is not happening like before. It's bizarre that people point to the immigration situation of more than a century ago as if has any relevance today. We don't need strained historical analogies. We can just look at what's happening right now with our demographics in 2023.

No, they were actively proclaiming for assimilation and suppression of foreign cultures and foreign tongues, if not explicitly foreign people.

Some people certainly wanted this, but did it actually happen? Or rather, did it actually happen any faster than it does now, or would have happened anyway? German was actually a very popular language in the US, with German newspapers in many towns, until the world wars. Lots of other diaspora communities persisted as well, like Celtish in the Carolina lowlands. My impression is actually that a lot of nativists did the opposite, and wanted the immigrants to remain separate in their own enclaves indefinitely--"No Irish need apply" doesn't seem like it encourages assimilation.

There were never as many Italians or Irish then as there are Mexicans and assorted CA hispanics now.

Do you have data to support this claim? Raw immigration numbers peaked in 1990, with the second peak being 1900-1920:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_immigration_to_the_United_States#/media/File:Immigration_to_the_United_States_over_time.svg

Adjusting for population, it's clear that we're in a pretty low spot historically (excepting the Depression and WW2)--adjusted for the 4.3x population difference, even the low point in 1900 is equivalent to well over 800,000 today. In fact, even going purely by raw numbers, "the last 60 years" is largely not that high!

Things have changed, and those changes have destroyed the mechanism for the assimilation that you take for granted. Hence the sneering. That machine's broken, it's not going to be rebuilt, and anyone who wants to do so is pilloried.

I don't see much in the way of evidence for any these things. I think people who say this don't sufficiently grapple with the history of assimilation, which I only know a little bit about, but I know enough to know that it's complicated.

This won't happen, because that goose is cooked.

Well, this is a testable prediction, at least. I think it's rather early to conclude it won't happen, when large-scale hispanic immigration is, what, 30 or 40 years old? German language newspapers existed as far back as the Revolution and was quite popular throughout the 1800s, only really declining because of WW1. Do you think that, say, the grandchildren of early hispanic immigrants (so, the children of people born in the US) don't speak substantially more English than their grandparents?

Raw immigration numbers peaked in 1990

That is not true. Ignoring the outlier year of 1991 (possibly a result of the Reagan amnesty?), the trend line of legal immigration is up and to the right from 1930 all the way until 2016.

This says nothing of illegal immigration, nor what the situation looks like now in 2023. Trump did (by jawboning) manage to reduce immigration.

Neverthless, foreign-born as a percent of the overall population keeps going up and will soon eclipse the all-time record set in the early 1900s.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/08/20/key-findings-about-u-s-immigrants/

So we might set a new record soon, but it's only recently (last 10 years) gotten close to the level that was maintained pretty consistently from 1870 to 1920 (although this is also affected by the native reproduction rate--I think "we have more immigrants" may be less useful than "existing residents are having fewer kids"). So it's still not really accurate to say "There were never as many Italians or Irish then as there are Mexicans and assorted CA hispanics now." If this trend continues it might be true at some point in the future.

German was actually a very popular language in the US, with German newspapers in many towns, until the world wars.

Yes, at which point their language and culture were brutally suppressed, and they were forcibly assimilated into the WASP culture of whiteness.

I think it's rather early to conclude it won't happen, when large-scale hispanic immigration is, what, 30 or 40 years old?

That's today. Reagan signed the amnesty in 1986. It's been 37 years. No need to wait, just look around you.

Do you think that, say, the grandchildren of early hispanic immigrants (so, the children of people born in the US) don't speak substantially more English than their grandparents?

I think they still think of themselves as hyphenated Americans, and still carry with them a dagger with which to plunge into the back of the nation that welcomes them. I think that, absent a war that inflames the prejudice and patriotism necessary, they will never assimilate the way the Germans did. I think that they are still foreigners, despite their citizenship or place of residence.

Yes, at which point their language and culture were brutally suppressed, and they were forcibly assimilated into the WASP culture of whiteness.

But what problems did this actually cause prior to 1914?

No need to wait, just look around you.

Ok, what am I looking at? Is it that the children of those immigrants from the 80s and earlier have started using American names and speaking English? Is it that these 3rd generation immigrants are more likely to describe themselves as American (also more data on language)? What? Or do you not actually have a justification for anything you've written, and are expecting me to just agree because something seems obvious to you?

still carry with them a dagger with which to plunge into the back of the nation that welcomes them

That's a completely wild sort of accusation to make. Do you have any evidence for such a strong claim?

Is it that the children of those immigrants from the 80s and earlier have started using American names and speaking English? Is it that these 3rd generation immigrants are more likely to describe themselves as American (also more data on language)?

They don't vote for the major political parties in the same proportions that others do. And that's a really huge thing.

Neither do children of natives. There's no new source of Republicans at all.

You mean aside from the old-fashioned one. Married with kids remains one of (if not the) most reliable proxies for conservative political leaning in the US.

Have you checked marriage and childbirth rates lately? And corrected for age?

But what problems did this actually cause prior to 1914?

Skyrocketing crime rates in east coast and midwest cities driven by the rise of the Italian-American mafia, the creation of Tammany Hall-style corrupt machine politics across much of the country, and an anarchist movement that resulted in one presidential assasination and a series of deadly bomb attacks.

That's a completely wild sort of accusation to make. Do you have any evidence for such a strong claim?

It's not a wild accusation in needd of a source, it's a reference to a speech by the President of these United States, where he said:

any man who carries a hyphen about with him carries a dagger that he is ready to plunge into the vitals of this Republic whenever he gets ready.

I don't need to cite sources for my own opinions, or to explain my own perspectives. I am not an encyclopedia, nor am I authoring a research paper. You are free to accept or reject them.

Are we still apply the sorts of social and governmental pressure to new immigrants that was applied to Irish and Italians? White nativists unable to distinguish between may have never seen them in their native habitats.

Once you're sufficiently familiar with the peoples of Europe in their native lands it's easier to distinguish among them.

What pressure are you referring to? And what do you mean by "native" here? Rich old money families descended from Mayflower passengers aside, my point is that the great-grandchildren of Italian immigrants from the late 1800s are not pretty much completely indistinguishable from the grandchildren of Polish immigrants in the 1920s or from the great great grandchildren of a German immigrant from 1850 or from the 5x great grandchildren of English immigrants from the 1700s.

Social pressure to speak English, be more "american", anglicize, their name, be productive, follow the existing mores, etc.

Government pressure to detect, infiltrate and disrupt their criminal networks, ensure the state is not losing revenue to tax fraud, welfare fraud, etc. Inspection prior to admission for signs of contagious disease, poor physique, feeblemindedness or insanity, criminal records or signs of low moral character.

Absent intermarriage or other dilution of their ethnic heritage, why wouldn't you be able to distinguish Italians, Poles and Germans? It's something that many people in Europe are able to do routinely with better than chance outcomes.

Native in the place of origin sense.

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