site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   31885 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 10, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

The export of shows like Jerry Springer in the 1990s

Have they actually been exported? I'm probably the poster boy for thorough Americanization via TV, and I have never seen Jerry Springer, only heard about it second hand. When we imported reality TV, it was usually through adaptation.

It reminds me of 4th of July LARPing in Eastern Europe. Yes, it's actually a thing and as you can see, many are going for the "redneck living in a trailer aesthetic". Which is ironic given their own position in the world's income ladder.

I have never seen anyone miss the point this badly. You never heard that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery? Their position on the world's ladder (and status is a lot more relevant than income here) is probably why they sympathize with, and LARP as Rednecks to begin with.

Their position on the world's ladder (and status is a lot more relevant than income here) is probably why they sympathize with, and LARP as Rednecks to begin with.

The people who do it are usually liberals, and I doubt they feel sympathy for their LARPing targets. It's a form of mild mockery, the way some kid might dress up as an English aristocrat snob and fake an exaggerated accent. There's an underlying sense of poking fun at your target, but fascination might not necessarily be excluded either. People are complicated.

Have they actually been exported?

There was plenty of daytime Jerry Springer when I was growing up. This was early 2000s. But Jerry Springer is really a red herring. US cultural dominance over Europe is near-total. Virtually every European knows about the redneck, trailer trash stereotypes etc. You don't need Jerry Springer for that.

The people who do it are usually liberals, and I doubt they feel sympathy for their LARPing targets. It's a form of mild mockery

Well, I don't want to go all "source?" on you, and in fact I won't fight you on this if you lay any claim to any sort of knowledge on this event, "I know a guy who went there", or even "I know a guy, who knows a guy..." will suffice, but how do you know? That's not how this reads to me at all.

In the article is a quote from the LARPing group’s own self-description:

"Our LARP explores the mythos of the American Dream - or more so the Broken American Dream. Players experience human stories, portraying characters with unique backgrounds. They face their daily life and the issues that come with it. Some are universal or similar to the ones in Poland (such as struggling to provide for your family or combating addiction), and some are specific to the U.S. (such as reliance on private health care or the prevalence of firearms). We wanted to create an immersive experience about facing those hardships both as an individual and as a community, about making impossible choices, about finding your place in your small homeland.

Emphasis mine. Whether it’s outright mockery or something more sympathetic isn’t so easy to tell from just the article (the quoted description makes it seem the latter, the donut-wielding cop provides evidence for the former), but even if the LARPers talk about the universality of the American redneck struggle, I still don’t read this as an identification with redneck culture itself. And it’s certainly not a celebration.

Yeah, the Polish redneck LARP thing seems like a normal case of intercultural fascination, rather than mockery. In Nordic countries there's a whole subculture who take their visual cues from American rednecks, and they certainly don't do it as a mockery.

I've seen a fair amount of cases where Euros are obviously engaging in what within European contexts would be harmless joshing or cultural exploration, so to say, with American cultures, and Americans then get genuinely angry and start ranting about why the smug elitist Europoors (who are a lot poorer than Americans, yes, if one actually participates in American online forums it would seem impossible to not learn this fact) hate Americans despite being a lot poorer than them.

(who are a lot poorer than Americans, yes, if one actually participates in American online forums it would seem impossible to not learn this fact)

I think the scale of the gap is still missed on many, and if you do bring it up people just assume ruinous healthcare and tuition costs level the playing field.

deleted

I've found Europeans get really weirded out when you tell them about drywall.

What, are they still using plaster and lathe? It's admittedly thicker but it takes much more labor to put up. Drywall is perfectly fine.

I'm weirded out by drywall. I always thought people were fucking up their fists by punching a hole in the wall, and then I learned it's practically paper-mache compared to good solid brick and cement.

No wonder you people make regular noise complaints, there could be an orgy with loudspeakers going on next door and I wouldn't notice as long as we both had windows shut.

Well I don't need to break out the hammer drill to put a picture up on my wall. Also the noise issue can be solved by having a house instead of an apartment.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats