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Yes, I understand the general form of the argument you are making. But I don't think it's nearly as contradictory as you make it out to be if you admit what I'm saying is fair. The underlying assumption is that the school is not a private religious school run by a community that refuses to work and instead leeches from welfare.
And if we admit that how a school is run is actually very impactful on student outcomes, we can frame the debate in terms other than whether funding is sufficient. Which normally the NYT seems reluctant to do. Yet here they try to imply that the schools in question gets too much money despite failing to produce results. Stripped of context, this sounds like a conservative talking point!
That's the leap I'm willing to make. I think poorly runs schools are poorly run schools, regardless of being private, public, religious or secular. I don't necessarily agree with all the metrics the state uses to determine education outcomes, but basic literacy seems like a fair one. I don't think religious schools are somehow worse at producing literate students, nor that disparate outcomes are attributable to them being religious schools.
However, I think it is completely and utterly fair to say that if a school is performing poorly, then the first step towards a solution should be examining why it is poorly run, and holding those who are in charge of it accountable. Then one should examine if the school is adequately funded and whether increasing funds would be likely to help.
Because throwing more money at a poorly-run school seems like an obvious way to set said money on fire for no real improvement. Dis-functional systems don't magically improve merely by adding more funds.
In short, if we assume that the Yeshivas are failing to educate their students in important subjects, I DO NOT see why we should assume the reasons for this are somehow inherently different than if a public school likewise fails at the task. Which many of them do.
Why should Yeshivas be singled out as if they present a unique problem? Note, I'm not claiming that the NYT shouldn't publish stories about this issue, I'm questioning the framing.
No disagreement here.
As other commenters have mentioned, Hasidic Jews are an insular community who are politically organized to give little and take lots. They appear to actively disdain and prevent their community members from seeking employment and instead just study religion all day. They very much violate the unspoken assumption that a school is trying to make a better American citizen (loosely defined as that is) who will not take from the public more than necessary. I'd say that's deserving of higher scrutiny.
Then public schools are worse. The Hasids are just scamming America, not trying to train its executioners.
This comment and your other one:
Are low quality.
I see you participating heavily in this discussion and some of your other comments are better contributions.
But there are some rule violations. Please try to support controversial arguments with evidence. Speak plainly and without sarcasm. Do not be antagonistic or inflammatory.
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Alright, but that's just grounds to fix all of them, not declare that what the Hasids do doesn't matter.
Edit: Also, that's an incendiary and divisive way of speaking about them. They have a different view on what makes someone a better citizen, and would describe you as trying to bring back a reactionary and bigoted government. Neither your accusation nor theirs is conducive to the discussion.
Fair enough. Once we've made all the public schools cost-effective, educational and nonpartisan, the Hasidim are next.
Interesting, does that mean you're okay with continuing to give them that money?
Yes and no.
At the most macro level, no. I don't want my tax dollars going to fund religious groups at all.
Given the fact that I don't get a choice in this, my money is going to religious groups, I find the orthodox relatively unobjectionable. Certainly and clearly better than Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, LDS, Academics, etc. On numbers alone if nothing else, they just aren't a priority problem to me. I don't see how they could be for anyone given their insular behavior. They aren't proselytizing, they aren't bombing shit, they aren't doing drive-bys. They're scamming the welfare system so they can sit in tiny rooms and argue about the Talmud rather than man a deli counter. If we're going to waste the taxpayer's money (and, I hope we can agree, we are), our country could do a lot worse, and does so on a regular basis.
If I were king, I would end all federal money going to schools, period. There's no such thing as secular education, so the state should GTFO. But that's not a political possibility, so we're talking about the least-bad policy to have. Lots of religions run this sort of scam, there was a whole thing in Minneapolis about Somali day-care centers that involved a lot of graft a few years back. I suspect which one people get outraged about depends on whether they consider jews or muslims to be their outgroup.
The only interesting thing I see here is that apparently, the NYT considers orthodox jews to be outgroup now.
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I'm amenable to this argument.
But explain to me why this same line of thinking wouldn't apply to Teachers' Unions. Especially if we swap in 'woke' ideological teachings for religion in this instance.
https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/how-teachers-unions-are-influencing-decisions-on-school-reopenings/2020/12
https://nypost.com/2021/07/04/teachers-union-vows-to-fight-back-against-critical-race-theory-critics/
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2022-election/teachers-union-wants-democrats-fight-back-republican-crt-attacks-rcna38001
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/teachers-ohios-largest-school-district-go-strike-2-days-start-new-scho-rcna44239
...Because there's no religious defense being offered? For all that you want to claim hypocrisy about this, there's a big difference between "a public school that is run to spread controversial messaging to kids as truth" and "a privately run religious school which actively tells you to not do more than study religion all day".
Moreover, you seem to think that I would support the teachers unions but not the Hasidic Jews. You shouldn't assume that about me when I haven't said anything about it.
From the perspective of outcomes, why should it matter?
At least the Hasids aren't making it mandatory to send other people's kids to their schools.
Well make your position known, if you care.
Okay, but I don't only consider the perspective of outcomes, so I think it does matter. The Hasidic Jewish schools in question are not even pretending to care.
Well fine. If we convince them to start pretending to care, at least, will that satisfy you?
They put on a nice little song and dance about trying to fix things and go on doing them the same way, and this is acceptable?
Why would it? I don't want them to pretend, I want them to actually care!
It's one thing if they started caring but then fell into a state of apathy. It's quite another to either not care or just lie about caring.
For that matter, would it satisfy you? Are you okay with ignoring a smaller issue just because it wasn't framed the right way, according to you?
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