This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
A year ago there was a kerfuffle around A Message From the Gay Community AKA "We are coming for your children" song, which was pretty blatant call that they are the ones who will educate kids into whatever their idea of "tolerance" is - and there is nothing you as a parent can do about that. Of course I think that this is all about clash of ideologies or one can say religions. Of course everybody thinks that they are projecting what is good into the world. There are people who think that books like Gender Queer or surgical transition of 15 years old kids is what tolerance means. So I'd say that "we're coming for your children" can be absolutely terrifying even if taken at face value by the criteria of said group - LGBTQIA+ pride protesters in this case. Radical Muslim imam proclaiming that he is going to teach your children how to interpret the Quran and spread goodness into the world, would probably be taken as a threat, despite his best intention of bringing them to heaven in his own mind.
The same for me. In my mind the LGBTQIA+ movement is now indistinguishable from radical religious cult. For me it is not unlike Scientologists infiltrating government institutions. So for these radicals to chant that they are going for my children is akin to Scientologists saying that they are going for my children (meaning they will "help" them by using scientology auditing method on them etc.).
Anyways, what is interesting is that there seems to be some self-awareness among these people that maybe they have shown their cards too soon and that they maybe overestimated their grip on our culture to some extent, given the current backlash. A year back there was a song by gay chorus about how they are going for our children, now it is a single voice in pride parade that is viewed as cringe by fellow marchers.
The gay choir song was just bad taste, plainly mocking the normies (until the last, saccharine verse about 'teaching belonging and love' in order to cover their asses).
So I just thought they were idiots (as well as some unkind thoughts about "what's all this stuff about it's unfair to stereotype gays because there isn't a distinct look or way of behaving, when these guys are every bit the stereotype of San Franciscan gay?")
I think the marches and chanting are meant to provoke, in a "ha ha only joking but not" way. Problem is, they may provoke someone to do something stupid (like beat up a marcher) and then it'll be all "this is the kind of homophobia that is still threatening gay people!" and not "okay, when you dare someone to punch you in the face, sometimes you do get punched in the face, and that's on you as much as on them".
More options
Context Copy link
On religious cult. Found this yesterday. I haven’t found the source of it on whether it’s performatively making fun of Catholics or something else.
If you don’t want to click thru it looks like a mass in Catholic firm that replaces various creeds and parts of mass with pride/woke ideologies.
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1673776078807240710?s=20
Nah, not performatively making fun of Catholics. Either it's one of the WomenPriests crowd, or it's one of the mainstream Protestant churches that went all-in on the women clergy, LGBT clergy, etc. Places like Episcopalians and Lutherans claim to be liturgical churches so they follow a particular order of service that still has roots in original Catholic liturgy.
One of the tiny, trendy, progressively liberal Christian bunches. Not mocking anyone but themselves with this silliness, because it's not going to bring in the LGBT people to fill the pews, and it's only driving away the more theologically conservative.
I feel like I’m being slow but I can’t figure out the “Jesus Christ who had two dads reference” especially if god had plural pronouns. Joseph is one dad though non-biological.
I feel like I want to save this video for next time I feel like making an argument that “woke/pride” is really a religion as an example.
Well, that's because they're Protestants and downplay the role of Mary 😁 (I've had worse arguments online with hardline Reformed/Calvinists who treat Mary as nothing more than an incubator; she pops out the sprog and that's it, her role is over and done with, and she wasn't that big a deal as mom anyway because any woman would have done).
Mostly it's them trying to be clever (and missing) at conservative/orthodox Christians in general about "oh you are all hung up about the gays, and protest the likes of 'Heather has two mommies', well your boy Jesus has two daddies, how do you like that?" It's an oldie but a (not) goodie that's floating around for a while.
They take God the Father and then Joseph as the foster father. They're pretty dumb theologically (and every other way). It's just them being dickheads (er, am I allowed say that?)
How is that tied to downplaying Mary? They're just going for connecting it to gay marriage, as you said.
In any case, as a "hardline Reformed/Calvinist" myself, Mary clearly had a bigger role than merely being pregnant with Jesus—she was his mother, raising him. I suppose we also see her at the cross. That's a lot less than the excess of devotion that Roman Catholics practice, of course, but it isn't nothing.
"Two daddies" displays the role of Mary as mother.
I mean, sure, but they're downplaying for a political point, not for a religious point.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I think the Isla Bryson scandal in Scotland and the consequent damage it did to Nicola Sturgeon's political career was a real wake-up call for many TRAs: yet another reminder that Twitter is Not Real Life and the goodwill and tolerance of the general public has its limits. The near-constant accusations of "fascism" and "far-right sympathies" from TRAs in the last few months are textbook tactics of a group who knows they've overplayed their hand and are now on the defensive.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link