This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Well, the vagrants have nothing to lose. They have no property that can be confiscated if they commit a crime. Being behind bars might even be an upgrade.
A taxpayer on the other hand is leading a life and owns property and actually stands to lose from state punishment. Even though you can just eat the fine or jail time, the state reaching in to screw you doesn't really seem like a state of nature to me.
Sort of. They have nothing to lose that society is willing to take from them. They have their lives and their freedom (for some definition of those things). They can absolutely lose those things, we're just not willing to take them.
We can solve vagrancy tomorrow, it's just an "atrocity". If it becomes a big enough problem, people will start to look for real solutions, and most of them are pretty bad.
They have their lives but their freedom is worth almost nothing to them, I suspect. Prison is probably better than living on the street.
No, they do value their freedom at least in the moment; if you confine them they will attempt to escape.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Of course it is; the state of nature is all versus all. If you proclaim yourself free of the state, at the same level of actor of the state, then you have opened yourself up to be legitimately screwed by the full might of the state, because a state of nature has no rules but "the strong do what they will, the weak suffer what they must". And the state is strong and you are weak.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link