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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   31290 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 15, 2023

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Sure that is a story.

It isn't a story. It is the definition he uses, and very much the standard one

Pigs are seemingly unbreakable and were still domesticated.

You are the one who brought up breakability as a criterion, not Diamond, nor I. It sure seems to me that if pigs are unbreakable yet domesticated, then the natural conclusion is that breakability is not required for domestication. And breaking a horse "refers to the process used by humans to get horses to let themselves be ridden or harnessed." What does that have to do with how humans use pigs? Or chickens? Or most other domestic animals?

Breaking being used by me as a synonym for taming. One of the main points of a domestication program is to breed tamer traits while not breeding wilder, more rambunctious individuals. Zebras have a decently long reproductive period (similar to horses) which makes the program more ambitious than a dog, cat, or chicken taming process, but considering how easily manipulated they were by Europeans, and how they love to bump uglies it indicates that either:

  1. Domesticating zebras would have been easily done by whoever domesticated horses; or

  2. Domestication of zebras was actually partially done, and the modern zebra is a 50/50 (or so) hybrid wild-type/domesticated animal, similar to how no truly wild type aurochs have existed for millennia.

Breaking being used by me as a synonym for taming

Yes, I know. The point is that taming is not domestication. Taming is done to an individual animal. Domestication is done to a species. The fact that one can tame an individual animal says nothing about whether one can, through artificial selection, engineer an animal with naturally tame traits.

Ok? Basically every-time we try breeding naturally tame traits these days the experiments show that the only real limit is them actually breeding enough and within our patience for trying.

engineer an animal with naturally tame traits.

The definition you gave earlier yourself says nothing about tameness, only about human interest, and another person already showed you that we did change zebras from their wild variant.

The definition you gave earlier yourself says nothing about tameness,

I was specifically responding to the following statement by anti_dan: "One of the main points of a domestication program is to breed tamer traits while not breeding wilder, more rambunctious individuals."

another person already showed you that we did change zebras from their wild variant.

Which person was that?

I was specifically responding to the following statement by anti_dan: "One of the main points of a domestication program is to breed tamer traits while not breeding wilder, more rambunctious individuals."

Well, it seems like the correct response was to point out that even breeding a more aggressive variant still counts as domestication, if this is what you wanted to accomplish.

Which person was that?

Esperanza

Well, it seems like the correct response was to point out that even breeding a more aggressive variant still counts as domestication, if this is what you wanted to accomplish.

Why would I say that, when my point was that his statement, "Zebras can be trained to be tame" says nothing about whether zebras can be domesticated?

Esperanza

? Esperanza makes an unsupported claim that "Zebras have been modified by being bred in captivity," and then goes on to conflate taming with domestication. His one concrete ostensible example, Lord Rothschild, is specifically mentioned by Diamond on page 171 of my edition, as an example of what domestication is not.

Why would I say that, when my point was that his statement, "Zebras can be trained to be tame" says nothing about whether zebras can be bred to be tame.

Because the response I suggested makes the same point without contradicting the definition of domesticability you cited, which is what your response did.

? Esperanza makes an unsupported claim that "Zebras have been modified by being bred in captivity," and then goes on to conflate taming with domestication.

The part that says the ones we have larger and smaller captively bread zebras does not conflate the two, and fulfills the criteria from your definition. The lack of support is a valid argument, and maybe @Esperanza can elaborate and provide sources. But keep in mind under these criteria, the claim that the captive zebras are the same as the wild ones is also unsourced, despite the amount of ink spilled saying "no one domsesticated zebras".

His one concrete ostensible example, Lord Rothschild, is specifically mentioned by Diamond on page 171 of my edition, as an example of what domestication is not.

He didn't cite is as an example of domesticability, it was a tangent.

Because the response I suggested makes the same point without contradicting the definition of domesticability you cited, which is what your response did.

? I really don't understand why you think that. I linked to a definitiin which says it is "the process of hereditary reorganization of wild animals and plants into domestic and cultivated forms according to the interests of people. In its strictest sense, it refers to the initial stage of human mastery of wild animals and plants. The fundamental distinction of domesticated animals and plants from their wild ancestors is that they are created by human labour to meet specific requirements or whims..." I elsewhere quoted this definition by Diamond: "domesticated animal is defined as an animal selectively bred in captivity and thereby modified from its wild ancestors, for use by humans who control the animal's breeding and food supply."

There is nothing contradictory about accepting that tameness is one of the "interests" or "specific requirements" or "modif[ications]" that humans might select for in a particular species.

The part that says the ones we have larger and smaller captively bread zebras does not conflate the two, and fulfills the criteria from your definition. The lack of support is a valid argument, and maybe @Esperanza can elaborate and provide sources. But keep in mind under these criteria, the claim that the captive zebras are the same as the wild ones is also unsourced,

Note that I referenced two articles re the guy mentioned who raises zebras in Utah or thereabouts, both of which referred to them as being the same as wild ones. Obviously reporters often get things wrong, but that is not "unsourced." In contrast, Esperanza seems to be making things up. I just looked at several zebra selling websites, and none make that claim. Note also that 1) there are larger and smaller species of zebra; and 2) Esperanza's claim isn't even about domestication, which involves changes at the species level, rather than merely repeatedly having your largest stallion and mare have sex, then selling the foals. If you are not cross breeding the foals over generations, you are not engaging in artificial selection.

He didn't cite is as an example of domesticability, it was a tangent

Not how I read it.

Btw, Esperanza says "Obviously, their breeding is controlled by humans, " but perhaps not. This place says: "Most adult female zebras we sell are exposed to males and usually pregnant."

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